Building the casino on land!

[emjay12]

I really hope they can put this on 4th street! That would create an amazing entertainment district. Stay at a hotel, walk to dinner, then a movie, grab a drink, and then hit up the casino. This project has a chance to clean up an area downtown too! I hope they find an operator with BIG dreams!

http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/news/lo ... c014a.html

[emjay12]

Another story on moving the casino onto land. They are looking for some major improvements!

http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/news/lo ... 5988b.html

[emjay12]

If the current operator of the Sioux City casino builds the land based one they think it would be similar to the Hollywood Casino at Perryville, Md. (here is a link to its website http://www.hollywoodcasinoperryville.com/)

http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/news/lo ... 2fd67.html

[DMRyan]

Is a downtown location on 4th Street really being contemplated for this? Hardly any of the Iowa cities seem to be able to actually convince these casino developers to build new facilities downtown. Dubuque has gotten the closest so far and Davenport sounds like it may be a pretty good bet too. No luck getting casinos as downtown development in Waterloo and Des Moines.

[siouxperland]

Is a downtown location on 4th Street really being contemplated for this? Hardly any of the Iowa cities seem to be able to actually convince these casino developers to build new facilities downtown. Dubuque has gotten the closest so far and Davenport sounds like it may be a pretty good bet too. No luck getting casinos as downtown development in Waterloo and Des Moines.

Downtown yes, specifically 4th, not likely. Downtown is a pretty large & broad area but you can bet it'll be within eyesight of the interstate, near hotels and where land is easy to assemble. Parking for at least 1000 cars is essential so that means a bunch of land unless you build or use existing ramps. The project that the MHRD (the gambling license holder here) REJECTED was a $100M casino of 80,000sf, multiple restaurants, entertainment venue, large multipurpose event room. I say, sell them the current convention center and expand that for the casino, overhaul the Clarion hotel top to bottom, inside & outside and add a new ramp of 600-700 spaces for parking at 4th & Virginia to serve both the casino and the 4th Street historic district. Knock down the 35 year old ramp behind the hotel, construct a smaller ramp integrated into the hotel with an event space on the top attached directly to the skyway level of the hotel. The top floor of the hotel could be returned to a restaurant/lounge/entertainment venue use.

The current contract with Penn ends on July 6th of 2012. If the MHRD decides to find a new operator, we could be without a casino until a new operator and location are built. If they reach agreement with Penn before then, a new casino will be built and the current boat will be used until the replacement is ready. There is interest in the boat if it becomes available to use an entertainment/dining venue but the city would like to remove it and continue with riverfront development in conjunction with the interstate rebuild from 2013-2017. Things like an observation tower and/or water feature have been discussed.

[Mastermind]

Will the downtown Post Office be closing/downsizing ? That could be a good location.

[siouxperland]

Will the downtown Post Office be closing/downsizing ? That could be a good location.

No, it is not closing and it's not enough land by half anyway. There is some muttering of it going where the Perkins, Walgreens & old HOM furniture store is, parking on a few levels from the ground up with the casino & possibly hotel above that. Lots of crazy scenarios for downtown locations coming out. I say build the thing out off Singing Hills Blvd. and couple it with a hotel & conference resort that includes an indoor water park, etc. Stretch the property along the bluffs there with the casino complex on the north end and the resort on the south with direct access to Green Valley golf course.

I-29 is a little over a mile west. The 20/75 bypass is a mile north. Nearly a dozen other hotels/motels are within a couple of miles along Singing Hills and Lakeport Road. Will escape most of the confusion and interruption of I-29 construction which will paralyze downtown for 3 years. The land is owned by one entity so no fighting with holdouts, etc like downtown would bring. Offers tons of room for expansion and additional needs not yet seen. Golf course is directly south of property, could be reconfigured to start/end at the hotel conference center.

[CJG]

Will the downtown Post Office be closing/downsizing ? That could be a good location.

No, it is not closing and it's not enough land by half anyway. There is some muttering of it going where the Perkins, Walgreens & old HOM furniture store is, parking on a few levels from the ground up with the casino & possibly hotel above that. Lots of crazy scenarios for downtown locations coming out. I say build the thing out off Singing Hills Blvd. and couple it with a hotel & conference resort that includes an indoor water park, etc. Stretch the property along the bluffs there with the casino complex on the north end and the resort on the south with direct access to Green Valley golf course.

I-29 is a little over a mile west. The 20/75 bypass is a mile north. Nearly a dozen other hotels/motels are within a couple of miles along Singing Hills and Lakeport Road. Will escape most of the confusion and interruption of I-29 construction which will paralyze downtown for 3 years. The land is owned by one entity so no fighting with holdouts, etc like downtown would bring. Offers tons of room for expansion and additional needs not yet seen. Golf course is directly south of property, could be reconfigured to start/end at the hotel conference center.

I fear placing the casino and resort in this area (Singing Hills) will make it too hidden from view and take away from the full potential. This needs to be done right (not like this company's Perryville Hollywood Casino). The Perryville Casino looks like a prefab concrete building that has paint on it and signage. We need something that is glass, modern, and well-lit up at night. Something that will make people driving on I-29 say "there is a destination that I must stop at." It would help if it had the ability to have large conferences and shows to compete with whatever Sioux Falls may construct for their events center. For that reason alone it should be west of the Tyson Events Center or otherwise within walking distance and clearly within view of the interstate.

[siouxperland]

I fear placing the casino and resort in this area (Singing Hills) will make it too hidden from view and take away from the full potential. This needs to be done right (not like this company's Perryville Hollywood Casino). The Perryville Casino looks like a prefab concrete building that has paint on it and signage. We need something that is glass, modern, and well-lit up at night. Something that will make people driving on I-29 say "there is a destination that I must stop at." It would help if it had the ability to have large conferences and shows to compete with whatever Sioux Falls may construct for their events center. For that reason alone it should be west of the Tyson Events Center or otherwise within walking distance and clearly within view of the interstate.

There is nothing suitable in the downtown area for a project like this that needs to be done right with multiple amenities (shopping, conference, event center, golfing). Tyson Center has HALF of the parking it needs now and to take away it's major lot would be a death blow. The casino in Larchwood is off a 2 lane blacktop in the middle of a cornfield with NOBODY driving by and it's doing twice the business of the boat here. If we build JUST a casino here, it's nothing special, there's no reason for anyone to make a special trip to Sioux City, casinos are everywhere now. We need to step up the game with a resort, golf course and water park or you can close down any casino that pops up downtown, it won't last 5 years with the game being played now. I say get RID of Penn Gaming, I'd rather see someone new. Penn has done nothing but drag their feet with the Sioux City property ever since they took over Argosy. I think the MRHD is right in exploring options without them in the picture, bring in someone better, which shouldn't be that difficult. Thats why Singing Hills works, there is twice the land down there than Grand Falls sits on, minus the golf course and Green Valley is already bigger than the course planned in Larchwood AND mature, meaning it won't be a cow pasture for 15 years. People will find the casino, once it opens, they'll have twice the traffic of the boat. I never go to the boat because the parking situation stinks and downtown it wouldn't be any better.

[CJG]

I really hate to see this thing sprawl along the side of a bluff south of town. It needs to be downtown and visible and transformative for the city. Build up on the limited space available - don't sprawl. Singing Hills is nice for cars, Wal-Mart, fast food, and the old golf course. The new casino complex and hotel should centralized downtown. Perhaps some buildings come down to make room.

[siouxperland]

I really hate to see this thing sprawl along the side of a bluff south of town. It needs to be downtown and visible and transformative for the city. Build up on the limited space available - don't sprawl. Singing Hills is nice for cars, Wal-Mart, fast food, and the old golf course. The new casino complex and hotel should centralized downtown. Perhaps some buildings come down to make room.

Dude, come on, it's a CASINO, not a museum. The boat here already draws too much of the lowest common denominators of society around here, it's time for an upgrade in clientele and facilities. Too much of downtown has already been wiped out with beige EIFS inferior design garbage replacing it. Look at Bomgaars old building. What a turd. We have enough low quality garbage like that downtown. The new casino needs to be a comprehensive planned development, with interlocking pieces helping the other pieces, driving traffic to each of the other pieces. A plain old casino plopped downtown ain't gonna do nothing good for Sioux City. And after the idiots at Penn spend $8 or 9M to buy enough land and clean it up, they're downsizing the casino to make it work. Out at Singing Hills, there's one owner/entity, nothing to demo... bare unused open ground for a half mile out there. That land has been for sale for 10 years without a looker. This project can bump up the south side a whole nother notch. Ignite some additional development in the area, something a downtown casino wouldn't do.

[emjay12]

I would love to see the casino actually reflect Sioux City. And none of that family friendly stuff! Sioux City was a bad a$$ city in the past. Openly defying prohibition, illegal gambling, prostitution, inviting seedy people like Al Capone and the mobs. Sioux City had a reputation! We were known as Little Chicago. This casino is for adults! I don't want some crappy Hollywood casino. We couldn't be any further from Hollywood! This is IOWA. People use to know Sioux City and that wasn't because of a stupid internet sing-a-long video (OH GOD!) or even worse the smell. (I once talked to a random person in Boston, said I was from Sioux City and asked if he had heard of it. His response was, "Oh yeah I drove through there once, that place smells!") I would love to see the casino on the Convention Center site. The convention Center is on more than two city blocks, Jones to Virginia and 5th to 4th street. Level the Convention Center, build the casino on that sight including the parking lot to the East. We can build up a few stories too for more SQ Ft. Talk about an entertainment district. Everything would be right there on 4th street. Local restaurants, movies, shops, bars, and clubs. They would need to add another parking ramp for all the people visiting 4th street and maybe rebuild the one between the former Clarion hotel and Mercy. 5th street is also elevated enough that a building with a few stories would easily be seen from the interstate. BIG DREAMS HERE; but then the City could build a new convention center by the Tyson. Walgreen's block, Bomgaar's block, or W of Pearl and S of 3rd. Or if more land is needed, I bet they could purchase the land from Knoepfler Chevrolet and the dog food plants Between Nebraska and Virginia. That would allow Knoepfler to move to Singing hills. Hopefully the dog food manufactures could be moved to an industrial part eliminating one more smell from downtown. I can only hope that soon we won't be the stinky city anymore. A bad A$$ casino for adults themed around prohibition, not a synthetic Planet Hollywood-esque casino.

[siouxperland]

I would love to see the casino actually reflect Sioux City.

^That right there would insure it sucks^

Vegas doesn't do the "badass" casinos anymore and for good reason: they don't bring clientele that actually allow them to make MONEY. If gambling is all you have, people will leave as soon as they're done gambling. Vegas figured this out long ago. Add spas, add shopping, add shows, one of a kind exhibits... Even people with money to blow tire of gambling and get bored and want something else to do for awhile. Besides, people in charge of this city have no clue when it comes to downtown, every project delivered in the past 20 years (excluding the Orpheum) were half assed & half baked. There's no coherency downtown, no vision and certainly no plan that is being executed. Several people try but they're often too alone in their endeavor. Besides, look at our hotels downtown, nothing there to crow about and people from outside of Sioux City never express much love of them. As far as bars/restaurants, a casino operator is NOT going to want to compete with 4th Street and lose a part of their revenue stream, no way, no how.

[Mastermind]

This doesnt mean you cant build up (downtown) rather than out.

[CJG]

This doesnt mean you cant build up (downtown) rather than out.

I agree that this needs to be downtown and it needs to be verticle, not sprawling and suburbanish. Perhaps build the compact/verticle casino, hotel, and entertainment complex to the north of the old Warrior hotel. Have ground level retail/entertainment with 5-10 levels of parking above that and then with 10 levels of hotel all topped off with a cloud casino up above all of the city. Have it open, glass, and well lit with spectacular views and a big city feel - something akin, but slightly taller than the Davis Brown Building in Des Moines. Then, to provide some additional hotel rooms the Warrior building could be retrofitted into a grand botique hotel that would be the old world contrast to the new, modern glass structure. Thinking big here, but why not?

[CJG]

Sorry for replying to my own post, but I looked on google maps and street view and think this location - tied in with the Warrior hotel building - could be sufficient space. To the north of this block there is very little value to the existing infrastructure. This location would be only a block from the Orpheum, across from the central transit and parking structure (finally those retail bays would fill up) and the entire Tyson Events complex is about a half mile - or short shuttle bus ride away. Saving the Warrior building has been a downtown priority for decades and it has to happen soon or the place will be unsalvageable. I think this location and idea has some potential - unless the idea of the casino atop the building is too big. But then put the hotel at the top and the casino down below. I think this concept would stand this casino project apart from all others in the midwest.

[siouxperland]

You're forgetting one thing... it's expensive building up versus out and this is not a high end Vegas style casino. The casino needs are about 90,000 square feet on one floor, which leaves the Warrior out. Besides, nobody is spending $20M of the $100M to do this project to try and bring an old relic up to code. For a point of reference, the empty Wal-Mart on Gordon is 87,000 square feet, that's just about what would be the casino alone. There isn't anywhere downtown you're going to sit that much space on one floor without knocking out blocks and blocks PLUS provide 1000 parking spots (minimum need).

It will not be on 4th Street or anywhere in the core if it is downtown at all (which it's likely not, the MRHD has optioned bare land and has said so already). Casinos do not want to compete with other entertainment opportunities unless they're a part of it or controlling it (such as bars/restaurants/theaters).

They want to do a project similar to a Grand Falls and being downtown is not going to achieve that end. It'll be somewhere where they can spend more money on the facilities than the acquisition and prep of urban property. They want a resort style conference hotel (no idea on # of rooms). They want an events center facility for shows/entertainment. They would like a retail entity as well which draws people to it. Would like access to golf and a family water park if possible operated by a partner (likely paired with the hotel).

[CJG]

You're forgetting one thing... it's expensive building up versus out and this is not a high end Vegas style casino. The casino needs are about 90,000 square feet on one floor, which leaves the Warrior out. Besides, nobody is spending $20M of the $100M to do this project to try and bring an old relic up to code. For a point of reference, the empty Wal-Mart on Gordon is 87,000 square feet, that's just about what would be the casino alone. There isn't anywhere downtown you're going to sit that much space on one floor without knocking out blocks and blocks PLUS provide 1000 parking spots (minimum need).

Yes. Let's convert the old Wal-Mart out on Gordon Drive. Lots of place for parking. Maybe Perkins will expand and stay open until 11:30. A new Quality Inn may get tossed in for good measure. Think small ... The SC way. If its going to be flat and done cheap, keep the boat IMO.

Why do you want the casino on one floor? The Borgotta in Jersey is a great model to use, it has multiple floors for the casino. A great hotel too. The Davis Brown building which is vertical was not cost prohibitive.

[siouxperland]

You're forgetting one thing... it's expensive building up versus out and this is not a high end Vegas style casino. The casino needs are about 90,000 square feet on one floor, which leaves the Warrior out. Besides, nobody is spending $20M of the $100M to do this project to try and bring an old relic up to code. For a point of reference, the empty Wal-Mart on Gordon is 87,000 square feet, that's just about what would be the casino alone. There isn't anywhere downtown you're going to sit that much space on one floor without knocking out blocks and blocks PLUS provide 1000 parking spots (minimum need).

Yes. Let's convert the old Wal-Mart out on Gordon Drive. Lots of place for parking. Maybe Perkins will expand and stay open until 11:30. A new Quality Inn may get tossed in for good measure. Think small ... The SC way. If its going to be flat and done cheap, keep the boat IMO.

Why do you want the casino on one floor? The Borgotta in Jersey is a great model to use, it has multiple floors for the casino. A great hotel too. The Davis Brown building which is vertical was not cost prohibitive.

Casino operators want casinos on one floor, has nothing to do with me. I don't want the casino at all. I'd rather the stupid thing closed and left town altogether. I merely mentioned the Wal-Mart to reference the size of a single floor casino the size of what is needed.

It's going to be flat but it's not going to be cheap, the MRHD rejected a $100M proposal by Penn already. Like I said (and you keep failing to see), the MRHD wants a resort style casino like Grand Falls. Room for things not yet envisioned. It's not a project that will be built all at once, it will be built over time as things are found to be needed and Jersey casinos have nothing to do with midwest casinos, apples and oranges. Kansas City doesn't build vertical casinos. St. Louis doesn't build em. Council Bluffs doesn't build them. But Sioux City is supposed to somehow throw up some gleaming vertical palace to gaming?

[CJG]

It's going to be flat but it's not going to be cheap, the MRHD rejected a $100M proposal by Penn already. Like I said (and you keep failing to see), the MRHD wants a resort style casino like Grand Falls. Room for things not yet envisioned. It's not a project that will be built all at once, it will be built over time as things are found to be needed and Jersey casinos have nothing to do with midwest casinos, apples and oranges. Kansas City doesn't build vertical casinos. St. Louis doesn't build em. Council Bluffs doesn't build them. But Sioux City is supposed to somehow throw up some gleaming vertical palace to gaming?

Sorry for failing to see your vision for the project as the be all and end all. Glad you got it all figured out and planned for SC - typical of the city and its residents. I will leave this thread to you since there is no need to brainstorm or try to improve the concept beyond the one story, prefab, cheesy concept next to some golf course behind the local Wal-Mart.

[siouxperland]

It's going to be flat but it's not going to be cheap, the MRHD rejected a $100M proposal by Penn already. Like I said (and you keep failing to see), the MRHD wants a resort style casino like Grand Falls. Room for things not yet envisioned. It's not a project that will be built all at once, it will be built over time as things are found to be needed and Jersey casinos have nothing to do with midwest casinos, apples and oranges. Kansas City doesn't build vertical casinos. St. Louis doesn't build em. Council Bluffs doesn't build them. But Sioux City is supposed to somehow throw up some gleaming vertical palace to gaming?

Sorry for failing to see your vision for the project as the be all and end all. Glad you got it all figured out and planned for SC - typical of the city and its residents. I will leave this thread to you since there is no need to brainstorm or try to improve the concept beyond the one story, prefab, cheesy concept next to some golf course behind the local Wal-Mart.

Wow, what are you, 8 years old? Like a petulant child running off. Good riddance, you can't even discuss something rationally. You need to follow the facts on what has been stated already. You fail to do that. If we were spending your money, have at it.

[emjay12]

THEY WANT TO BUILT IT DOWNTOWN. If that does not work they will look for other areas to consider. They said they have one particular site in mind and a few others downtown as well. Any idea of where?

My thoughts are the Convention Center, or between Virginia and Court south of the railroad tracks and North of Gordon Drive. Help clean up that area. The scrap yards use to be there and I'm not sure what is in the other two buildings.

Here is a link to the story,

http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/news/lo ... 6fc71.html

[Mastermind]

THEY WANT TO BUILT IT DOWNTOWN. If that does not work they will look for other areas to consider. They said they have one particular site in mind and a few others downtown as well. Any idea of where?

My thoughts are the Convention Center, or between Virginia and Court south of the railroad tracks and North of Gordon Drive. Help clean up that area. The scrap yards use to be there and I'm not sure what is in the other two buildings.

Here is a link to the story,

http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/news/lo ... 6fc71.html

Great idea IMO

[siouxperland]

It won't be downtown in the sense people think, they have a need of 1000 cars worth of surface parking (which MRHD has said is a minimal need). Think stockyards.

[Mastermind]

It won't be downtown in the sense people think, they have a need of 1000 cars worth of surface parking (which MRHD has said is a minimal need). Think stockyards.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but why does it have to be surface parking?

[emjay12]

Knoepfler Chevrolet has a huge piece of land just west of the old scrap yard. "If" Knoepfler wanted to join the rest of the car dealers down on Singing Hills there would be a very large piece of land visible from the interstate and two blocks from forth street. It would also clean up that area of town.

[siouxperland]

It won't be downtown in the sense people think, they have a need of 1000 cars worth of surface parking (which MRHD has said is a minimal need). Think stockyards.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but why does it have to be surface parking?

What the casino wants. They have to have that at a minimum to make the numbers of $100M casino work. Right now they're at probably 57% of what the market will support for the current casino with less than 500 parking spots. Plus you factor in that they want to have a 1200-1500 seat event room for shows/concerts and you add that to a casino and even 1000 spots is pretty thin. Like I said earlier in a post, you're looking at a casino building the size of that empty Wal-Mart on Gordon with AT LEAST that much surface parking.

[SiouxCity KCMO Man]

It would not surprise me to see parking structures put up to minimize the footprint of the area. It does cost more to put them up, but it also provides an amenity that winnavegas cannot provide. I can see the city assisting on this part of it.

[siouxperland]

It would not surprise me to see parking structures put up to minimize the footprint of the area. It does cost more to put them up, but it also provides an amenity that winnavegas cannot provide. I can see the city assisting on this part of it.

Anyone on the council who approves building a parking ramp with city money will be hung with a rope on the front of City Hall. Now if the casino wants to spend their own money, so be it. There are 3 plans being drawn up, 1 of them is a downtown plan, the other two are suburban, so the odds are greater it will be somewhere other than downtown. Personally, I'd tell Penn to pack it up and leave and have the MRHD look for another operator, Penn is pretty middle of the road and lackluster. There's a substantiated rumor that the land where Truck Haven sits at I-29 and Singing Hills is a leading choice. The property is available as is the land behind it to the north giving them enough room and great visibility to the interstate. It's also at a great location with highway access across a large area being south of the 20/75 freeway.

[emjay12]

A little more news on the Sioux City casino. Penn is trying to get the Missouri River Historical Development board's lawsuit dismissed. The MRHD board brought suit against Penn over Penn's "monopolizing" of Sioux City's market. The MHRD was not satisfied with the Penn proposal for the new casino and wanted to take bids from other gaming operations. Penn's view is that the MRHD must do business solely with them. Penn had threatened to bring legal action against any gaming operators who talked to the MRHD about biding on a Sioux City casino.

LINK
http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/news/local/a1/sioux-city-casino-operator-seeks-to-dismiss-suit/article_0d38e270-d2e3-57e5-aadc-c55639354751.html

Personally, I don't think Penn has a leg to stand on. When the current contract runs out (within the next year?) How can they lay stake to whatever the City decides to do. Penn could have been kicked out every time the county voted to keep or get rid of gaming. The MRHD is looking out for the city (I know I am clearly biased). But, Omaha is not far away. Growing up in Sioux City, I was always in Omaha. People from Sioux City were always in Omaha. If Sioux City could build a nice and unique casino (different from the C.B. casino's) maybe Sioux City could get some visitors from Omaha.

Scholarly people, what are your opinions? It doesn't feel right that the MHRD will only be able to take bids from Penn from now into infinity. Could a nice casino in Sioux City ever lure anyone from Omaha to come visit our community?