Equitable Building Renovation

[4th&Court]

I think it's blown way out of proportion. I wouldn't hesitate for one moment to move there.

This is another one of those ridiculous "zero tolerance" stances our modern culture takes. Asbestos doesn't jump off the wall and give instantaneous cancer to anyone within a stone's throw off it. Yes, it is dangerous and yes, it needs to be taken care of and removed. However, people have a tendency to act like the stuff is kryptonite and is surrounded by a carcinogenic force field that will put you in a hospice the second you stop holding your breath. Such extreme and unrealistic positions really don't help anyone.

There are people all over the Des Moines area living in old houses with asbestos insulation as we speak. It's not good, but they aren't all riddled with cancer either.

[dogbo]

Good posts by BLD and 4th & Court. IMO, the truth lies somewhere in-between.

Of course we need some regulation related to elements that have been deemed harmful, but at the same time the urban landscape is littered with examples of neglect because the gov't has gone overboard in passing regulations which make rehabbing an old building a cost prohibitive proposition (and not worth the hassle).

Let's face it. There's a reason developers keep perpetuating sprawl by ripping up cornfields on the edge of the metro when there is plenty of infill space that is dire need of redevelopment.

Also, there seems to be a lot of energy here to convict Knapp of wrong doing based on a newspaper article. These are only acquisitions at this point as far as I have read.

[4th&Court]

Also, there seems to be a lot of energy here to convict Knapp of wrong doing based on a newspaper article. These are only acquisitions at this point as far as I have read.

Accusations, I believe you mean.

[hawk61401]

The construction on the upper floors began in February 2005. Three years later (last month) the James law firm on the 6th floor tested positive for asbestos. If I had been working in that office, I would be thinking .. have I been breathing this stuff for 3 years?
Yes, sometimes the government goes overboard with regulations. A lot of those regulations are there to protect us because nobody else will.

Bob Knapp's comment about it being only a small amount of asbestos sounds a bit alarming. How does he interpret what a small amount is? Is he an asbestos expert? Small enough that he thought precautions weren't necessary?

Sure, it's easy to say the situation is overblown if you haven't worked, lived, or visited the building in the past three years. Even if the building is devoid of any asbestos now, a lot of harm might have been done.

[dogbo]

Also, there seems to be a lot of energy here to convict Knapp of wrong doing based on a newspaper article. These are only acquisitions at this point as far as I have read.

Accusations, I believe you mean.

yes... Thx.

[Young DSM Social Club]

Bummer ... I worked in that building on the 10th floor in 2/2005. I was there until 10/2005. At that time, they were working on the 11th floor.

[dogbo]

Even if the building is devoid of any asbestos now, a lot of harm might have been done.

That depends on what your defination of "is" is.

[4th&Court]

Sure, it's easy to say the situation is overblown if you haven't worked, lived, or visited the building in the past three years. Even if the building is devoid of any asbestos now, a lot of harm might have been done.

I didn't live there (I'm pretty sure no one has yet) but I have visited plenty of times in the last 3 years. I'm not concerned at all. If there is asbestos there they need to fix it, but absent proof that Knapp knowingly or negligently avoided regulations, I don't think nailing him to the wall is the answer.

This reminds me of 2001, when after September 11th there were random old ladies in the Midwest refusing to accept or open their mail or answer the door. It's almost like some people get some sort of celebrity thrill out of being able to claim they are or were in harm's way.

[Better Life dude]

4th & Court wrote:

I didn't live there (I'm pretty sure no one has yet) but I have visited plenty of times in the last 3 years. I'm not concerned at all. If there is asbestos there they need to fix it, but absent proof that Knapp knowingly or negligently avoided regulations, I don't think nailing him to the wall is the answer.

In the Register's article he admits he (Knapp) didn't follow proper procedures:

Knapp and his construction manager both admitted that workers who were not certified to remove asbestos tore the material out of the Equitable Building, according to DNR documents.

The workers wore none of the required protective equipment, Knapp and his construction manager admitted. The workers did not seal the area where the asbestos was located. Nor did they test the air for asbestos, as required by worker-safety regulations.

What more proof do you need than the man's own words?

[DMRyan]

I didn't live there (I'm pretty sure no one has yet) but I have visited plenty of times in the last 3 years. I'm not concerned at all.

The Polk County Assessor's records show 3 of the units have sold, including one of the million + penthouses. We obviously have no way of knowing if the people that own the units actually live there.

[Young DSM Social Club]

So far, I think I am the only person on this forum who worked there when this started, and I am at least somewhat concerned ... so I imagine those who were there longer, would be even moreso.

[hawk61401]

So far, I think I am the only person on this forum who worked there when this started, and I am at least somewhat concerned ... so I imagine those who were there longer, would be even moreso.

I sympathize with your concerns. Knapp has a team of lawyers. If he has to pay a fine, it won't be enough to hurt, probably won't so much as even issue an apology. He can go on with his life. The victims have no recourse but to wait and hope for the best. If there weren't government regulations, this story might never have come out.

Iowa State University takes asbestos removal very seriously. Go to the site below to see the manual. Go to "University Responsibilities" It's very impressive, transparent, easy to understand compared to a lot of government stuff. I hope you find it useful.

http://www.ehs.iastate.edu/publications ... bestos.pdf

[hawk61401]

2 developers fined in errors at Equitable
By PERRY BEEMAN • REGISTER STAFF WRITER • March 12, 2008

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State worker-safety officials have fined Equitable Building developers more than $21,000 for improper removal of asbestos during work to convert part of the historic downtown Des Moines building into condominiums.

The Iowa Occupational Safety and Health Bureau fined Oakmoor Management Co./Equitable L.P. $10,175 for failing to have a trained supervisor at the asbestos removal and for failing to properly equip and train the workers at the Equitable Building.

Jacobson Staffing Co. L.C. of Des Moines, which provided workers, was fined $11,250 for similar offenses.


The companies have the right to appeal.

Prominent Des Moines developer Bob Knapp is converting the upper floors of the 19-story, 84-year-old building into condominiums.

Also on Tuesday, a state environmental panel — after getting an earful from Equitable tenants irate they weren't told they were in danger of asbestos exposure — unanimously voted to refer environmental violations to the attorney general's office so a higher-than-usual fine could be considered. The attorney general could seek fines of $10,000 a day; the Iowa Department of Natural Resources has a limit of $10,000 total on fines.

Charles Becker, Knapp's lawyer, declined to comment. Jacobson officials couldn't be reached.

The firms are required to post a notice about the labor violations prominently in the building.

Tenants still wonder if they'll get sick — decades from now — from breathing asbestos fibers. The strands can scar lungs if inhaled, causing lung diseases or cancer.

"It just makes me sick to my stomach," said Kelly O'Berry, who with her husband bought a condo on the 15th floor in April. "I'm very disappointed with the DNR" and other agencies, O'Berry said.

She didn't blame Knapp, saying, "Bob Knapp is a good guy."

Equitable representatives didn't show up for their 1 p.m. appointment at the Iowa Environmental Protection Commission meeting at which the panel heard details of asbestos violations over 1 1/2 years of work at Equitable.

Construction continues at the building, which still contains asbestos, said natural resources department lawyer Kelli Book.

John Bouslog, a partner in the Dreher, Simpson and Jensen, P.C., law firm on the building's second floor, said the tenants are all worried. They also are angry that no signs were posted, or evacuation orders given — by any of three state and local health agencies or the resources department — after the resources department investigated an anonymous tip in September.

"Multiple thousands pass through there on a weekly basis," Bouslog said. "It bothers us tremendously that we were kept in the dark, for four months, by DNR.

"Every tenant in that building is very, very disappointed by the response."

"One secretary is pregnant," Bouslog said. "Is she in jeopardy? Is the baby in jeopardy? I hope not.

"We found out about this by reading The Des Moines Register," he said. "That is not how someone working in the building 10 hours a day should find out."

The day after the Register printed the article to which Bouslog referred, Knapp called his cell phone to discuss the situation.

Bouslog said that his firm has no plans to sue and that Knapp has been cooperative.

The Dreher firm hired a lab that found no asbestos at the firm's office. Separate testing of the James Law Firm on the sixth floor found asbestos in carpet samples.

No public agency posted any notice in the building, tenants said.

The DNR's Book acknowledged that the department didn't post a notice, but she said she isn't sure that department has the power to order the building vacated. The department did order work stopped at one point, but not all workers complied.

The public commission agenda for Tuesday's meeting listed the Equitable issue only as an "air quality" matter and did not mention asbestos.

"This commission should look at your staff, what they did do, what they should have done, to protect the public and the people that visit that building," Bouslog said.

"Did the owner drop the ball? I defer to you," he said.

"But as a taxpayer, I think the regulators dropped the ball. If there is such a bad problem building, vacate it. If a notice had been posted, we should have vacated" like tenants did during the flood of 1993, he said.

Environmental commissioners Paul Johnson of Decorah and Susan Heathcote of Des Moines urged the resources department to review its public notice procedures.

Reporter Perry Beeman can be reached at (515) 284-8538 or [email protected]

[Mototail]

I ran across this during the afternoon. Apparently creditors of Knapp are forcing the building into foreclosure.

Court records show that control of the property has been transferred to a receiver. An attorney for Vantus, Thomas Burke, says tenants of the building should not be affected by the foreclosure.

http://www.kcci.com/money/19343229/detail.html

[Better Life dude]

It's a jewel of a building - someone will come along and buy it from the bank.

[Mototail]

I'm sure someone will come along and buy this for a reduced rate. One can only hope that possibly the purchase price of these will be driven down to a more reasonable rate.

That's the item that I could never understand is building a housing population that is decent and then raise the prices. They have been going at much of the price points in a very counter-intuitive manner.

[dsmLA]

I find it interesting that each time that building has been sold, it was for less and less money.

1989: Equitable of Iowa sells the building to Chicago investors for $11,275,000.
1996: Chicago investors sell the building to EIB Acquisitions, another Chicago-based group, for $7 million.
2005: Developer Bob Knapp buys the Equitable Building for $5 million.

[BenRoethig]

The way its going price wise, we should all chip and buy it. How much does everyone have in their pockets?

[Mototail]

The price selling points would either suggest that the market for the buildings are correcting itself or that the developers were unloading it at reduced prices.

I'll say this that the market for loans and opportunity would be that the recent developer pursued the price-point for each condo unit.

I'd be interested if a list of family-friendly as far as the possibility of 1)raising at least one kid and 2) those units priced under $200,000 to $250,000. I'd bet majority of these units downtown like the Equitable Building are either geared towards either the low-income tax credits or empty nesters.

[DMRyan]

It's projects like Ingersoll Square, Mulberry Lofts, 301 E. Court, 4th Street Condos and now E5W that have/had (before they were converted to apartments) units catering towards the $200,000 and up income bracket. You don't get much in the way of sq. ft. for under $200,000 downtown, and many developers shot for much too high of an income bracket when they built they're units. Now that the majority of these developers shot for the moon and missed the mark on the demand for more affordable units, they're either left with a half empty building or renting out.

With the exception of the Gateway Lofts, you're not really seeing many of the upper end projects renting units out for some reason. Has anyone noticed units renting at 111 City Lofts, Whiteline Lofts, 418 Liberty or the Brownstones on Grand yet? Perhaps developers should pay attention to what Lander-Sherman did with the Waterstreet Brownstones. The units were built before the condo craze, but you don't see a ton of empty units at this development. Perhaps the riverfront location was just too prime, or they were really on to something with the type of living configuration (most were priced around $300,000+ I believe).

[dogbo]

I'm pretty sure I read/heard somewhere that the developer for 111 City Lofts has created sometype of rent-to-own program.

[dsmLA]

Knapp will pay record fine for asbestos in Equitable building

Financially troubled Des Moines developer Bob Knapp has agreed to a record $500,000 fine for mishandling asbestos at downtown Des Moines’ historic Equitable Building.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/articl ... S/90505013

[Better Life dude]

Knapp has more than likely opened himself up to civil litigation as a result of this fine. Not a good outcome for trying to cut corners in the demolition phase.

[hawk61401]

Knapp has more than likely opened himself up to civil litigation as a result of this fine. Not a good outcome for trying to cut corners in the demolition phase.

He's only opened himself up to civil litigation? Medical science has not established any level of human exposure to asbestos fibers that is considered to be safe. Environmental laws are important because they protect us from dangerous substances, and from the dangerous conduct of people who willfully mishandle those substances.

If it was a family member or loved one of mine that had been needlessly exposed, I wouldn't be happy with only a civil litigation. Some of the people who were cleaning and renovating, possibly visitors, might have a life sentence of a debilitating lung disease called asbestosis, a rare cancer of the chest and abdominal lining called mesothelioma, and various other cancers.

[DMRyan]

Another week, another prominent local developer hitting the skids. All of this really damages the reputation of the building, even if someone buys the building and continues forward with revamped development plans. This just really piles onto the problems happening in the downtown core and being discussed on the other thread.

[Des Moineser]

The only saving grace is that this is happening in every other significant city in the country. I think at the end of the day, once the economy comes back, buildings such as this won't be too stigmatized with bankruptcy and failure. In the end, the new people with money will pick up where the old ones left off, and EIB, etc. will get done.

[Mototail]

The 111 City Lofts I contacted a couple months ago about their rent-to-own program and the price point for majority of the people are still too sky high and over the moon. The point is that the downtown region needs to realize that they have stiff competition from pricing in the suburbs. Price things within the range of that and you'll draw more people creating further development. I've been keeping my eye on the West End Lofts as they might have the approach on target.

[dogbo]

The point is that the downtown region needs to realize that they have stiff competition from pricing in the suburbs.

But they also offer one big advantage, that is hard to put a price tag on. You don't have to live in the suburbs!

[Philby]

But they also offer one big advantage, that is hard to put a price tag on. You don't have to live in the suburbs!

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[Mastermind]

really people, were gonna have a bash the suburbs fest? At least make a dedicated thread so the rest of us dont have to listen to it...