Court Avenue Development Efforts

[DMRyan]

I really have to give a ton of credit to those Full Court Press guys, taking a chance on Court Avenue when no one else would, and now look at the district. I can't wait for the street to someday be considered finished. With every parking lot filled, more spots for retail/restuaurants/bars and real estate so in demand, the street's 3 parking garages are up for redevelopment.

[dogbo]

I went running downtown today and made a couple observations:

1) Hessan Haus has posted on their window that they serve food until 1:45 a.m. Hopefully talk of polluting Court Ave the likes of a Taco Johns or something of that ilk can stop regarding late night dining options.


2) the planters around the trees on Court Ave are poorly planned. There is no barrier around the planters so as I somewhat expected after seeing them for the first time (and have now witnessed), people are walking over the newly planted perrenials since there is nothing to stop them from doing so.

[DMRyan]

Good effort to Hessen Haus for keeping the kitchen open late, but the last thing I need after a night out is a polish sausage and sauerkraut! I'd still take something more generic like a chain sandwich shop or a pizza by the slice place.

[Philby]

I agree with DMRyan - thanks to the Haus for serving food til close....but what do you do if you close the bars down and want something to eat at 2:15? When's Big Tomato gonna open a "downtown branch"??

Actually the little sandwich shop that just opened would be a great location for Big Tomato if they just delivered pizzas there from the main location. That way it wouldn't need any ovens just a coupla warmers.

[Hojo]

I'm all for a sandwich late night, but for my money, nothing beats a burrito.

[Mastermind]

Gyros, hands down...

[4th&Court]

I went running downtown today and made a couple observations:

1) Hessan Haus has posted on their window that they serve food until 1:45 a.m. Hopefully talk of polluting Court Ave the likes of a Taco Johns or something of that ilk can stop regarding late night dining options.

I agree that it's great that Hessen Haus will serve food til 1:45 a.m., but that still doesn't fill the niche that is being left open. Hessen Haus doesn't serve anything quick, cheap and to-go. That's what post-bar folks are looking for. They don't typically go in search of a place to sit down and eat a full meal. In Iowa City, the lines at Taco Bell and Panchero's are out the door from about 1 a.m. til they close. That's what people are looking for. Spend $4, get a burrito or a taco and a drink. Quick and easy, and still ignored by those with the capital.

[DMRyan]

Here, here. Chain fast food joint or not, this is a niche entirely unfilled on Court Avenue. Even when it's not bar time, I don't always want to spend $12 on lunch at a sit down restaurant when I visit the area, and that pretty much leaves the High Life Lounge's $3 cheeseburger baskets.

[Better Life dude]

Someone member of absolutedsm needs to quit their day job asap and get this fast food project started. There is money being left on the table by not owning and running an all-night munchie shack. Who's going to be the visionary person to step up and fill this need?

[dogbo]

I contend that if it was such a "no-brainer", it would have happened by now. There are always people looking to invest in franchises and moreover, many people that are currently making good money owning current fast food franchises so they have the capital, and are always scouting for new areas to locate . If there was a definite home run opportunity in Court Ave for such an establishment, it would be here by now. That is not to say there won't be one sometime in the future, but it is really naive to think entrepreneurs who are always on the lookout to make $$$$$ have not run the numbers and determined (at least for now) that this doesn't make sense (or is still too risky).

No offense to many here, but to me it is inexcusable if some of you have identified this gold mine and are not taking steps to benefit by it yourself. Seriously, if this is a no lose situation, and you've indentified and believe it to be so, then take this on yourself. Get a partner or partners, raise the capital, get a small business loan, make a business plan, and get your "can't lose" business up and running. How many opportunities are you going to have in your lifetime to invest in something that is guaranteed to be a big money maker?

[Hojo]

I contend that if it was such a "no-brainer", it would have happened by now.

This is what I've said all along. A restaurant cannot thrive merely on the receipts of late-night diners (unless, perhaps, it's a Panchero's in Iowa City). I think that yes, now that more young people are living downtown, there is a higher demand around dinner time, but lunch is still a risk. Quizno's downtown has been for sale for quite some time, and their gross receipts aren't very high during the day hours.

[Better Life dude]

No offense to many here, but to me it is inexcusable if some of you have identified this gold mine and are not taking steps to benefit by it yourself. Seriously, if this is a no lose situation, and you've indentified and believe it to be so, then take this on yourself. Get a partner or partners, raise the capital, get a small business loan, make a business plan, and get your "can't lose" business up and running. How many opportunities are you going to have in your lifetime to invest in something that is guaranteed to be a big money maker?

Exactly my point in my last post - but I took the snarky language route.

[4th&Court]

I appreciate your confidence in market forces, but reality shows that it isn't exclusively business geniuses sitting on the capital and resources for this stuff. Many, many business owners aren't in business because they have great instincts and are always looking for opportunity, but rather because their father-in-law left the business to them or they bought it thinking it was a good investment or some other "I just sorta landed here" scenario. Downtown has seen many examples over the last few years of exactly how out of touch these entrepreneurs can be, and how very often they don't know their market at all. The grocery stores are excellent examples of this. A grocery store could succeed here, but not with the business model they used. They ignored the actual wants and needs of downtown residents and instead just tried what felt good.

I don't have the resources to open a fast food chain downtown, but if I did, I'd do so immediately. The person who does is going to have an overnight success, guaranteed.

[Ingersoll1978]

I believe a late night fast food joint would do well...but...I don't have ANY desire to be in the restaurant business!

[Philby]

I appreciate your confidence in market forces, but reality shows that it isn't exclusively business geniuses sitting on the capital and resources for this stuff. Many, many business owners aren't in business because they have great instincts and are always looking for opportunity, but rather because their father-in-law left the business to them or they bought it thinking it was a good investment or some other "I just sorta landed here" scenario. Downtown has seen many examples over the last few years of exactly how out of touch these entrepreneurs can be, and how very often they don't know their market at all. The grocery stores are excellent examples of this. A grocery store could succeed here, but not with the business model they used. They ignored the actual wants and needs of downtown residents and instead just tried what felt good.

I don't have the resources to open a fast food chain downtown, but if I did, I'd do so immediately. The person who does is going to have an overnight success, guaranteed.

I agree that some people are not business smart even though they own a business....but certianly not ALL of them. I certainly think a late night eatery serving burritos/pizza slices/subs could do well downtown....on Friday and Saturday nights, but what about the rest of the week?? Many people who do have the resources to open up fast-food chains also have the resources to do foot-traffic studies and other things to help them determine if they want to open a business (of whatever type) and so far no-one has determined that their business model is a money maker. With the amount of traffic that walks through the skywalk you would think that the Younkers, and other stores would be able to make it in the Hub...and although its been a lot less empty lately, its still obvious that downtown workers don't spend a lot of money during the day in the skywalks on things other than food...

And I agree that a grocery store could succeed downtown....but you can't provide a grocery store downtown with the wants of the downtown residents....because they all want a huge Hy-Vee downtown...and that's not gonna happen.

[4th&Court]

I agree that some people are not business smart even though they own a business....but certianly not ALL of them. I certainly think a late night eatery serving burritos/pizza slices/subs could do well downtown....on Friday and Saturday nights, but what about the rest of the week?? Many people who do have the resources to open up fast-food chains also have the resources to do foot-traffic studies and other things to help them determine if they want to open a business (of whatever type) and so far no-one has determined that their business model is a money maker. With the amount of traffic that walks through the skywalk you would think that the Younkers, and other stores would be able to make it in the Hub...and although its been a lot less empty lately, its still obvious that downtown workers don't spend a lot of money during the day in the skywalks on things other than food...

And I agree that a grocery store could succeed downtown....but you can't provide a grocery store downtown with the wants of the downtown residents....because they all want a huge Hy-Vee downtown...and that's not gonna happen.

I agree that it doesn't apply to ALL, that's why I said "many." And as far as the weeknights, you might be surprised exactly how busy it can be down here on a Wednesday or Thursday night these days.

As for the skywalk and Hub, it continues to be a "chicken or egg" scenario. We can say people don't buy much other than food downtown, but the truth is there is little to buy. Entrepreneurs seem to want to see people doing aimless laps around the desolate skywalk with Visa's and cash in their hand before they'll open the businesses that people want/need. That simply won't happen. People will shop downtown when there are things they want to buy downtown.

[Philby]

It has been awhile since I've been out downtown on a Wed or Thur, but I'm glad its getting busier weeknights not just on Fri/Sat!!

I've been meaning to take the GF to dinner at Sbrocco so maybe we'll head there on a weeknight to check out the scene.

But I don't know if I buy your "chicken/egg" argument. What exactly did Younkers not sell that people want to buy? The times I was in there it seemed very similar to the other Younkers in DM and department stores in general I've been to. Department stores typically carry a majority of things that a majority of people want to buy.

I agree that if downtown was the only place that some shops existed, than more people would shop downtown....but you've got to look at the economics/geography of the city/burbs. Most of the money is in the western burbs, and why would someone from the western burbs drive downtown when they can get to the same stores at Valley West or JCTC in half the time?

I'm not saying I prefer malls or burbs, but the fact is that they exist and until you can get a majority of the people with money to spend at retail stores closer to downtown than to the malls in the burbs I don't think downtown retail is going to succeed...as much as I would like it to.

and its not even confined to large department stores which require a large volume of sales, take a couple of the boutiques that started in the EV. Schaeffers has been downtown FOREVER, and under new ownership completely moved to West Glen (although since then I think they've reopened something in the EV, but I think their main store is the West Glen location). Granted part of that could have been a lack of committment to downtown, but I certainly don't think they made the decision because they thought they'd make less money after the move...

then there was the other high-end clothing boutique that was started by some ladies who live in LA (maybe from DM originally) that began in EV and moved to West Glen because of lack of sales. I believe its now completely closed, probably from lack of sales, but perhaps because the owners were tired of travelling back and forth.

I'm not trying to be all doom/gloom because I'm a downtown fan and would prefer to walk downtown when I wanted to shop instead of driving out to the burbs where the stores are....but the fact is that the money is out west, and so thats where the stores have located.

[Young DSM Social Club]

I totally understand everything you are saying, but not ALL of the money is in the western suburbs, or we wouldn't have any of the high end establishments downtown that we do. Besides, is a Younkers really "high end"? I would think it would pull shoppers from all demographics. Anyway, at the end of the day there is money all over the place --- downtown, South of Grand, SW DSM, Easter Lake, Ankeny ... more than enough to support places to shop besides the western suburbs.

While I am not wealthy, I live by Ingersoll and generally shop/eat downtown far more than, say, West Glen (when possible). I would imagine there are lots of other people with the same disposable income that aren't living in the western suburbs.

[Philby]

I never claimed Younkers was high-end...instead I was trying to make exactly the opposite arguement, that it should attract all kinds of shoppers...and even with a diverse customer base it was unable to make enough profit to keep its doors open.

I agree that not all the money is out west....but that's certainly where the majority of it is spent.

Maybe its just me, but if a department store can't survive downtown but can in Southridge mall than maybe its more than just where the money is and people shop where they live not where they work, so we need to continue to get people to live downtown before we can expect retail to survive.

I think the saying is "Retail follows rooftops" and not "shoppers follow retail" (obviously there are exceptions if the retail offers a unique product/service, but if a shopper wants to shop at a department store they're going to the one closest to them)

[DMRyan]

I have to keep pointing to the exodus of national retailers from downtown Minneapolis. It's defintely not as vibrant of a retail area as it was a few years back. If a concept like this struggles in vibrant downtown Minneapolis, it's going to be hard sell here too. The dynamics of our retail market dont point to department stores opening up in downtown any time soon. An interesting comparison is how smaller US cities like Providence, RI, Rochester, MN, Spokane, WA and Boise, ID have had such luck at drawing large scale downtown retail. What happened in their market that didn't happen in ours?

[wmjindsm]

Good idea from Full Court Press(From the Des Moines Register)

Here was the dilemma the group known as Full Court Press was having with two of its establishments. It wanted to open Hessen Haus, the German American pub/restaurant at 101 Fourth St. in Des Moines, for lunch. It also heard the clamor from its Buzzard Billy's patrons who wanted to know where they could find that restaurant's Cajun menu items, now that flooding from the Court Avenue sewer water backup effectively closed down that operation.

So, why not open Hessen Haus for lunch, serve its German American menu items of hamburgers, bratwurst, sandwiches and salads AND the dozen or so most popular Cajun items from Buzzard Billy's lunch menu? That's exactly what happened as of this week.

Dan Massoth, one of the owners, said he wants people to know nothing has been taken from Hessen Haus's menu. The Cajun foods have been added to the lunch menu. For dinner, patrons can order three appetizers from Buzzard Billy's: Gator Fingers, made with alligator; Armadillo Eggs, not made with armadillos; and cheese sticks made with hand-breaded fresh cheese. Other Buzzard Billy entrees may be added later.

Massoth said this was an opportunity to bridge the gap between Billy's being closed and such time as it may reopen, which could take months.

Lunch is served from 11 a.m. Mondays through Saturdays until 4 p.m. On Sundays, lunch begins at noon. Dinner is served from 4 to 10 p.m. See hessenhaus.com

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/p ... ersonaDest

[dogbo]

I was down on Court over the lunch hour today and it appears that Baldwin is starting some major work on the bars he purchased from Larry Smithson.

The northern 2/3rd's of the building is getting a new faux brick facade. Long overdue. This should blend in better with the nearby historic buildings. I'm not sure if this will continue as the latin music "La Rocka" (or whatever it is/was) or if he's putting in something new here. Regardless, it will look much better.

The southern 1/3 of the building has what looks to be a temporary sign designating it as "The Party Cove". Hopefully he has some plans to improve that next.

[DMRyan]

That's much more than I was expecting after I thought it would be nothing more than a fresh coat of paint and some tiki huts on the patio outside. It's not so bad for downtown to continue to have a few meat market clubs to choose from, even if this corner begs for much more. Hopefully it will be run better than it has in the past.

Someone else mentioned this recently, but Court Avenue desperately needs some new street level commercial space to spur even more business. Some of the remaining small parking lots might become more attractive to put a 2 or 3 story building on to house a couple of bars or restaurants.

[Lost Planet]

I was down on Court over the lunch hour today and it appears that Baldwin is starting some major work on the bars he purchased from Larry Smithson.

The northern 2/3rd's of the building is getting a new faux brick facade. Long overdue. This should blend in better with the nearby historic buildings. I'm not sure if this will continue as the latin music "La Rocka" (or whatever it is/was) or if he's putting in something new here. Regardless, it will look much better.

The southern 1/3 of the building has what looks to be a temporary sign designating it as "The Party Cove". Hopefully he has some plans to improve that next.

There's a big sign on the building with the faux brick facade, formerly La Roca. It says, "PELICAN BAR". Kind of a dumb name if you ask me.

[4th&Court]

Much to the surprise of many, very few real changes have been made to that property so far. Still looks pretty much like a tacky Smithson joint.

[spacebetween]

In my opinion, Baldwin needs to gut that place, like he did with Drink, and start from scratch. Of course, now that smoking is banned from bars he will need to make sure his staff actually cleans after each shift. I was in Drink shortly after the ban and that place smelled like death rolled over. We asked the bartender what the deal and he said the smoke used to mask the smell, but it was the keg cooler and the floors....nasty! Need less to say, we quickly left and went to a place that didn't smell, I never liked Drink anyway. I have to imagine Smithson's places are just as bad if not worse cause they are older...but just my assumption.

[DMRyan]

In E. Court Avenue news, the signs are up for Smithson's newest bar, a country western joint named "The Court Avenue Saloon" in the place of the former Club Statik.

[Hojo]

I think that in order to best utilize the patio space on that corner, Baldwin needs to build it out similar to what he's done at Drink by allowing it to be enclosed in the winter (thus actually making use of the space in the cold months). Although many people refused to patronize the bar when it was owned by Smithson for the very reason that it was owned by Smithson, most people avoided it because it just plain sucked. Changing owners isn't enough in that space, and the downtown regulars and supporters deserve better than an "it's not as bad as it was" job. It's a tough economic climate, and I don't expect a 2 month turnaround, but Baldwin does need to keep in mind that his reputation could very well turn into Larry Smithson, Round 2. I don't anticipate this, however, because Baldwin actually likes to make money, where Smithson likes to pretend he has it.

[buildup]

Going back to the late night early morning food, has anyone experienced the "SUPER DOG" from Welch Ave. up in Ames? I’m not sure if it really is the best hotdog ever or if I was just drunk every time I had one.

[Hojo]

No, you're right. It's an amazing hot dog. There's just something about street vendors...George's Gyros and Marco's Grilled Cheese in Iowa City and are also "best ofs" in my opinion