Nollen Plaza Makeover?

[Cyclonefan]

i agree. but i think anywhere downtown would be nice. I just want a big fountian that looks nice and you easily see it.

[Ingersoll1978]

IMPACT Downtown is currently in the process of starting a fundraiser to get a major fountain in the west end of Gateway West. You'll be hearing more about that in the next couple of months as everything gets organized.

[Gomer37]

Seriously, what on Earth is that dumb green mound about? I was thinking about the idea of planting a time capsule at the depth of the radius point of that mound on the west end of the Gateway. Maybe include pictures of all the buildings that were torn down in the clearing of downtown.

Sorry for going so negative. I want downtown to succeed too, but it needs activity, not greenery!

Nollen Plaza failed initially because the space was too big, had no activity pockets to enliven the edges, and was built of glaring, inhospitably white concrete. The fountain was its only saving grace (when it was on). The addition of the lights gave it a sense of enclosure that helped a lot, and the growth of the trees around the edge have made the space much more livable. The only potential building edge, Capital Square was cut off, and with that decision, Nollen Plaza was doomed.

If we were to rethink the structure of Nollen Plaza, we should think about possibly adding a structure that would provide for some activity- a restaurant, a coffee bar, a place to hang out, etc. Not too crazy about it's location right in front of the Civic Center on this plan. Perhaps a better place might be on the corner of Third and Walnut? or maybe even an extension of Capital Square... Maybe the retaining wall could become a stage structure, used for parties, dining, etc? A giant gazebo as it were.

Another thing that Nollen Plaza has going for it right now is the geometric relationship it has with the Civic Center. That skewed wall and arc is very strong and helps to cement it into people's minds as a memorable space. This plan is too blobby. There's no personality to it.

Another thing to include in this structure? Showers and public toilets for homeless people AND all the bikers who will be riding to work soon!

[dsmLA]

Just a point of clarification, that plan show in the register was not from Doug Hoerr's office or any other design office and it is nothing like any of the proposed ideas that they have came up with.

The register got that image from a study that was done a few years ago on Nollen Plaza and it was just a sketch.

[Ingersoll1978]

****NOTE*** The homeless debate on this thread was spun off into it's own topic under General Discussion. Please keep posts here specifically related to Nollen Plaza.

Homeless Discussion thread link:
http://absolutedsm.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2063

[4th&Court]

http://www.dmregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll ... S/61002007

[dmluvr]

and the point of that article was???

it sucks that is for sure.....but sadly it happens, fortuantley no one got hurt.

[4th&Court]

I agree! I'll be curious to hear more about how that whole thing went down.

[dogbo]

I agree! I'll be curious to hear more about how that whole thing went down.

I guess me burning question is this.

Why post this story (especially after being taken to the cleaners on your comment about the Drake area crime)? IMO it doesn't seem to add anything to the discussion about redeveloping Nollen Plaza.

Just curious.

[4th&Court]

I don't remember the "taken to the cleaners" part. I remember seeing no evidence, just excuses and denials. Either way, I do believe Nollen can be great if we make some changes!

[Cyclonefan]

Any new news on this?

They said they were going to possibly start in the spring. I havent been by to much but from what I've seen, nothing huge is going on right now.

[DMRyan]

I doubt they've even raised any funds for this yet, so I wouldn't even call this proposed at this time. For 5 or 6 million, they could probably do a decent overhaul to bring this plaza into current times for at least another 25 years.

[Ingersoll1978]

Is a plan starting to gain steam?

This is a snippet from the Register about the upcoming DM City Council meeting:

PLAZA: Council members will receive a letter from the Cowles Foundation and the Civic Center of Greater Des Moines for a plan to redesign the city taxpayer-owned Nollen Plaza.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/p ... S/80323004

[SharpHawkeye]

I really, really hope they keep the downtown tram study in mind when they work on any redesign proposals. Nollen Plaza would be a key stop for any potential tram route, whether the stop is on the north side or the south. Hopefully the two groups can get together and collaborate on this...it would be such a waste to have to redesign/renovate the plaza twice.

It could turn out to be incredible given a little teamwork...

[DMRyan]

I think the downtown tram will defintely come into consideration. The same Urban Designer/Architect that has largely drafted the new downtown plan will also be donating her services to the redesign of Nollen Plaza. It sounds like the first step to pay for the study is in place. Next up will be how to fund the improvements.

[DMRyan]

The full article from the Register. Looks like planning work shops begin on this in late April. I say shoot for the moon, and the ideas can be winnowed out from there. Two things have to remain, the Crusoe Umbrella and some type of fountain.

Council agrees to support revitalization of Nollen Plaza
By MELISSA WALKER • REGISTER STAFF WRITER • March 25, 2008

The centerpiece of downtown Des Moines' rebirth in the late 1970s could be transformed into an urban park that leaders envision would create an iconic identity for the city.

Nollen Plaza was seen as an investment in the redevelopment of the downtown area when it opened in the late 1970s as a public plaza with a water fountain, a small park and later a giant sculpture called the Crusoe Umbrella.

For almost three decades, it has been the site of anti-war rallies, festivals and race starts and finishes, and a place for downtown workers to relax.

Now, leaders say the plaza needs to be updated to fit the growth and redevelopment that has occurred in the city in the past decade.

"Wouldn't it be terrific if people went to the plaza -- if it was a destination -- and not just drive by it?" said Charles Edwards Jr., president of the Cowles Foundation, a charitable trust that gives financial support to art and cultural institutions.

Organizers want Nollen Plaza to become a unique attraction that draws visitors and builds off its central location along Locust Street among downtown attractions that include the state Capitol and Western Gateway Park. Preliminary ideas include more green space, a redesigned water feature, a directory of downtown sights and more artwork.

The site would be modeled after Millennium Park in Chicago, a 24-acre park that includes prominent artwork, an outdoor concert venue, fountains and gardens and was constructed in a partnership between city leaders and philanthropists.

Council members on Monday agreed to support the redevelopment of the site and said it presents opportunities for the future. Councilman Robert Mahaffey said it will create synergy with the Principal Riverwalk and other development that has occurred in recent years.

The plaza was dedicated in July 1979 and was named for Gerald and Henry Nollen. It is owned by the city but, through a longtime agreement, is maintained by the Civic Center of Greater Des Moines. City employees remove snow and mow the grass at the site.

The 30-year-old plaza has not aged well in some areas. The park-like area collects trash and has dirt paths because grass does not grow well there. The Brenton Fountain and Reflecting Pool has deteriorated in recent years. It was turned off in 2003 so officials could fix a 10,000-gallon-a-day leak that cost $30,000 to repair. Officials intend to have the pool open this year.

The Civic Center and the Cowles Foundation will each spend $25,000 to create a conceptual plan for the plaza. Edwards said there is not a preliminary cost estimate for the redesign, nor have organizers proposed what entity would pay for the construction.

Cities across the country have revived central plaza areas:

• Pioneer Courthouse Square in Portland, Ore., has been transformed to include a small theater, sculptures, chess boards, a waterfall fountain, an echo chamber and historic elements that display the city's past.

• Copley Square in Boston, Mass., is a park surrounded by historic buildings that has various sculptures and is the site of a seasonal farmers market.

The redesign of Nollen Plaza fits with the vision of the city's new downtown plan that encourages more green space and enhanced cultural opportunities.

"We made some really wise investments in setting aside these public plaza areas," said Erin Olson-Douglas, an architect who helped write the downtown plan and is a consultant for the Nollen Plaza redesign. "Now, 30 years later, we're looking at how to make them relevant today."

Organizers will hold a public session April 23-25 to create a conceptual design for the plaza.

[watts715]

Images and the Presentation form the open house and planning process have been posted at http://www.downtowndesmoines.com.

Here are some of the images for the proposed concept presented at the open house...

NP-plan.jpg

NP-mediacube.jpg

Nollen%20BirdsEye5.jpg

[Better Life dude]

I'm reluctant to be a nay sayer - mostly because I didn't take part in the charette - but I wish the proposed layout wasn't so geometric/angular and divided up with this project. I hate the big gray space in the middle and the grove of trees remaining on the south side of the block. I do like the big wall of water - I think that's the only thing I do like. I wish the plans instead had a central circular fountain in a classical style with walkways radiating from the fountain area out to the corners and then having trees, grass, hedges and flower beds sprinkled all throughout the whole.

The idea of lining up the grey area of the plaza so it's at a right angle to the windows of the Civic Center is an artifice since the windows and entrance of the Civic Center are ugly to begin with. No need to play off of them.

[rasmeth]

Can anyone explain to me why the new design is better than the way the plaza is now? Why is the money, time and effort going to be worth it?

[Mastermind]

Not impressed, so basically they are filling in the current fountain and putting in a waterfall....It may grow on me, but this seems extremely amateur. I know the designers are well known. They may have taken the public input too literally.

[dogbo]

That is the problem with evaluating this from a couple renderings. If you'd attended the open house, you'd have gotten a lot better feel for what this proposal does to correct many of the limitations of the current plaza.

[DMRyan]

^
Please let us know more about the corrections proposed. I was unable to make the design charette, and don't have much more to base opinion on other than these rudementary renderings. I must say, it looks more like a band aid than an overhaul of Nollen Plaza. I'm with BLD, what about something more traditional for a civic plaza? It could still have a signature fountain, but there should be much study of what makes public spaces in march larger cities so great. Don't go so cutting edge with design and materials here. Work on a functional space that uses native materials like limestone for retaining walls instead of the concrete brutal environment that is there now.

[hawk61401]

The designer of the new library (David Chipperfield) was shocked when he seen the paltry landscaping around the library. He wanted it surrounded by trees. Instead, we have 1/3 of Nollen Plaza covered in a forest and they want to plant more trees! Authentic urban spaces never try to fool the user about where they are. So, I agree with Ryan. Get rid of the brutal concrete and use limestone.

Who is the designer, how were they chosen, and what's their qualifications?

[dogbo]

When I get some time, I'll try to explain more about what I heard and saw at the open house. For now I'd just like to interject that there were no fewer than three opportunities for the general public to provide input on this. One day, there were sessions over the lunch hour and another in the early evening. The following day, there was a chance to drop in anytime from approximately 8:00 am. until 4:00 or so. Finally, there was on yet another approximately during a 4 hours window of time that allowed people to come and view the proposal, ask questions of the designers, and sign up for further opportunities to be involved.

There is no guarantee, but I would surmise that if anyone with a passion for this space had carved out even a little time to attend one of these public sessions, they would have gain a better understanding and appreciation of what is being proposed here and why.

Is it perfect? No, but it should not be lost that this is just a proposal that is subject to many changes.

Quick note: there is no proposed new planting of trees, but rather a thinning out of trees in a few areas of the "forest" to bring in a little more light and then the addition of the pavers (since grass does not grow well in this shady area). Every tree on the renderings is an existing tree.

[Better Life dude]

Dogbo: It's hard to get to every planning session for every project downtown. I've been to more than my share in the past two years. I'm also pretty good at looking at a plan view or an elevation and understanding the concept of what's trying to be achieved. It's true: if I had made it to the meetings, I would have asked for a different design.

By trying to save as many existing trees as possible in the new plan, I think the designers are working with one hand tied behind their back. It would be just as easy to raise a greater amount of money for an exciting design as to raise less money to pay for a lesser design. I think Nollen Plaza could be more than what we're seeing here.

[Ingersoll1978]

After reading the pdf about the design, I liked the plan better. I like how the plaza area connects the Civic Center and Capital Square. I also like the "cube" restrooms. I think that would look really cool when your walking down 4th St (and as long as it is PROPERLY maintained with staff available when it is open---also bike lockers and showers should be incorporated into this building too). Maintaining the trees on the northside should happen, as it really doesn't diminish the park in any way and provides shade. The other half...I think there could be a much better plan. It doesn't solve the limited use of this part of the park. The water feature is bold...and I like it (kids will love it). I just think there needs to be something more...like a reflection pool or a jumping fountain of some kind. I'm sure this isn't the final plan.

[speeder]

I don't think a public restroom is a intelligent idea for this public plaza. In my opinion it's just going to cause problems, is not necessary, will deteriorate, will attract unwanted urban elements, and will take up space that could be used for something more useful to downtown workers, visitors and residents.

I also think keeping any of the trees on the southern portion of the existing plaza is the wrong thing to do. In my opinion these trees are overstory and/or overgrown and detract from the space. Street focused, understory trees, either in clumps or framing the space are more attractive and inviting for pedestrian traffic and space enjoyment. What is there now, and what sounds like will be kept, is a dark, overgrown, uninviting space that takes up about half the space. For example, the Farmers Market was packed last Saturday. I saw only two people who managed to find a space in the dirt (there's very little grass under the trees) where some bit of sunlight was breaking through a damaged tree canopy... two, with thousands leisurely milling about nearby. Waste of space, the trees should be cut down and milled into lumber or we can have a giant bonfire to celebrate the gift of sunlight to the south half of the plaza!

[watts715]

Like dogbo I encourage those who were not able to attend the open house or public sessions to visit

http://www.downtowndesmoines.com/i_want ... arette.php
http://www.downtowndesmoines.com/upload ... _house.pdf

There is a pdf copy of the presentation given at the open house...although the audio is not available it helps reveal some of the design's intentions.

Also you can still forward comments to...

planinput@downtowndesmoines.com

This design is only a rough draft and the renderings rough to say the least. This design was created and presented in a matter of three days and will continue to evolve.

To answer hawk61401's question...Ken Smith was the lead landscape architect on the project. He is originally from Iowa and attended Iowa State University. He is very well known for his work with public spaces; for example, he was a member of the THINK team for the World Trade Center competition in 2002. He has worked for well known firms such as... Peter Walker and Martha Schwartz, and has now opened his own office in New York City.

In my opinion this design is far from perfect and may have tried to jam too many of the "I wants" from the public input into what's a fairly small space....but an intriguing concept and great starting point. I'm with DMRyan on the use of native materials such as limestone...no specific materials were discussed at the open house that I can recall, other then permeable paving under the trees. The use of native materials and plants could really help create a space that speaks about the area.

Also, the shaded area will appear much more open & welcoming once the wall and existing fountain are removed that divide up the space, as well as, a solid surface is installed and some trees are removed. The trees appear overgrown and sick because there are too many. The restrooms came up several times in the public sessions as a necessary evil... one can't rely on local businesses to supply restrooms for a site that is intended to be used for large public events. I personally like the idea of making them an art feature on the site so that they are not so intrusive.

[Mastermind]

Here's and idea, and be gentle on me...

What if they were to continue the fake stream one the library and Papajohns grounds. This would extend the theme throughout downtown, and incorporate the natural elements proposed by DMRyan. the Waterfall could incorporate the limestone and symbolize the dam on the DSM river near the new pedestrian bridge. Then instead of creating a reflecting pond as suggested by Ingersoll, the "fake steam" would be continued, but split into 2 and mimic the 2 rivers DSM and Raccoon.

Sound like a good idea?? I'll forward this idea to the email if you guys like it...

[Better Life dude]

You get points for creativity.