Gray's Landing/Riverpoint West: A step forward

[proffdog]

there may be some people from small cities who are impressed by a Target downtown, but i can guarantee that no one would go to Minneapolis or Seattle to see a Target store ... they go for the unique things you can only find in those two cities (markets, art, music scenes, shops). and if Des Moines wants to have any sort of appearl to those outside the city, they need to focus their efforts on unique development.

i live downtown, and the 7 minute drive to Target isn't killing me.

[dogbo]

I guess my point was that both downtown Seatle and Minneapolis have highly regarded downtowns which seems to prove you can have a Target downtown and it is not the end of the world.

I'm generally Mr Local store/anti-chain resturant here, so you're preaching to the choir a bit on the need for local, unique shops, bars, restarants, etc. for downtown Des Moines.

[Cyclonefan]

there may be some people from small cities who are impressed by a Target downtown, but i can guarantee that no one would go to Minneapolis or Seattle to see a Target store ... they go for the unique things you can only find in those two cities (markets, art, music scenes, shops). and if Des Moines wants to have any sort of appearl to those outside the city, they need to focus their efforts on unique development.

i live downtown, and the 7 minute drive to Target isn't killing me.

I agree, Id rather this project not have things like that, but it wouldnt be very convnient to have unique restuarnts and stuff like that, that far out from Downtown. Most people would rather it be on Court or another street, within walking distace of the rest of Downtown.
For a while I thought we where making headway on getting rid of surface parking lots downtown, now they are just going to just put more in. I think they should just redesign this whole project.

[Philby]

I don't think the point is to not have chain stores downtown (i think it would be GREAT if downtown DM had enough residents to support a target/whatever along with all the local shops), I think the point is to not have suburban chain stores downtown (with seas of parking lots).

In order for downtown to grow it needs to draw people in from the suburbs and get them thinking about how much nicer it would be to live close to everything downtown offers. Putting a target/lowe's/best buy downtown is not going to do that...

[mistertwister]

yeah but....are the Seattle and Minneapolis Target stores built exactly like thier suburban cousins? Single big box store with acres of flat parking?

My problem with this developement is the total lack of vision that seems to be guiding it. I feared the worst when it was annonced that Hubbel and Rottlund were working together and it seems my fears were warranted. They are taking the exact same approach to design and planning that they would in the suburbs and bringing it to the urban core.

What this site needs is not rows of identical townhouses and big box retail. It needs dense, inner city neighborhood design of old but with modern style and amenities. Retail space and office space needs to be interspresed with housing and above all, parking needs to be hidden and greenspace plentiful.

I would urge that the Des Moines council reject this plan. I would much rather take the time to have something done right, then wind up with another Wells Fargo arena on our hands....i.e. the right idea but poor execution that in the end does not inspire or fufill the intended need.

[speeder]

What this site needs is not rows of identical townhouses and big box retail. It needs dense, inner city neighborhood design of old but with modern style and amenities. Retail space and office space needs to be interspresed with housing and above all, parking needs to be hidden and greenspace plentiful.

I completely agree, I'd like to see this development counter-point Prairie Trail in Ankeny as the other choice for that 'neo-traditional/new neighborhood' seeking crowd. I guess what I'm trying to say is I want to see something that makes me want to move to Riverpoint in a few years and not Prairie Trail... assuming things develop in Ankeny as planned.

[Cyclonefan]

The good thing is that about nothing they come up with will be even close to being as bad as what it is now. We shouldnt forget about that.

[dmluvr]

I disagree with you cyclone fan!---we should not only forget, but we should also expect a complete new proposal.

This is horrible and unexusable. This whole "it's better than nothing" attitude could be applied to about everything and it is completely worth waiting even 3 years before ground breaking to get the right project in there. This is too damn big of a chunk in (or near) downtown to just accept some better than nothing attitude. I'd gladly take nothing over this current proposal as currently--nothing is actually better.

[DMRyan]

This may finally be moving forward! The council should approving a developer agreement at the next council meeting. The details include a way to fund most of the $50 million in land acqusition, site cleanup and site prep to have shovel ready development sites ready for competing development proposals. Phases I and II both consist of mostly commercial space (500,000+ sq. ft. of office space), with phase III being the residential component.

If you want to read the complicated financing package details, see the link below. If everything goes as planned, dirt should start to be pushed by this fall. There's so many financing components to this project, I can only hope that everything goes as planned. One large contingency could throw the progress on this off track.

http://www.dmgov.org/mayor_council/agen ... 07-315.htm


Also, see this week's council agenda for the development agreement details on the Opus_001, E5W and Ingersoll Streetscape projects.

[Des Moineser]

Hmmm... I thought they had already started clean-up on this thing.
Either way, I'm pretty happy about this project. It will really fill in a sparse area of the downtown. Don't care for that flex-space and the box box involved, and the eccessive parking lots, but you can't bat 1.000.

Any idea of a timeframe for ground-breaking/completion?

[DMRyan]

Things could soon be moving forward to end the 10 year residential tax abatement for the downtown area, instead giving new condo owners 5 year abatement like the rest of the city. The city needs the additional money that would be abated to help pay for the loan needed to kickstart the Riverpoint West project. The changes (if approved) wouldn't take place until January 1st, 2009 and will not affect any developments that have commenced construction before this date.

What do you guys think about getting rid of this economic development tool? It may lead to a flurry of construction for downtown properties before the date, but it has been thrown around that there is currently a 2-3 year supply of condos already on the market downtown. Is 5 year abatement enough when the mounting fiscal needs of a cash-strapped city are considered? There are a lot of other incentives and economic development tools to spur projects, but none impact condo purchasers like tax abatement does.

[Better Life dude]

It's eminent demise may stimulate demand for the condos that offer the 10 year abatement. Help move some of that inventory.

Other cities I've looked at for downtown housing: Cedar Falls, Omaha, Minneapolis - none of them offer a 10 year abatement. I feel lucky having bought recently in downtown Des Moines that our townhouse does feature 10 years of abatement.

[DMRyan]

I think KC offers either 15 or 20 year abatement in their downtown core.

[Philby]

While I myself benefit from tax abatement, and perhaps will on my next purchase (if I stay downtown/sherman hill) - i think it is time to test the market and see if people are actually ready to live downtown regardless of the incentives offered.

Brownscamp and the plaza continue to move units even though that tax abatement is over (or almost over) - so that is a good sign.

We've got a wide variety of options for people (although I think we could use more apartments and smaller but cheaper condos) so now we just need to see if the demand is there.

We certainly don't need any more development that the abatement was meant to spur, its already had that effect - so now we need to sit back and see how it plays out.

Regarding KC - is that just in their CBD? or all over the metro? My brother lives on 39th and Main (right by westport, N of the plaza) and I know that his area has seen a lot of development, but there's also already a lot of people who live there (albeit many in lower income bracket) so it seems weird that they would be trying to get people into the area. I do know the building right next door to his was purchased and is going to be turned into condos - so maybe that is because of abatement. I know his area is quite blighted - but just a couple blocks W is westport so perhaps the development that's happening there is spreading to him. Also about 20 blocks north of him in the "warehouse" district - there's also a lot of condo/retail development occuring (near the new sprint arena), so perhaps thats where the abatement applies.

[dogbo]

I think it may be time to reduce the abatement from 10 to 5 years especially if the additional revenue generated is needed by the city to get River Point finally developed.

[rasmeth]

In the last rendering of Gray's Landing there seems to be too much parking. If the developers could at least eliminate the very northeastern quadrant of parking it would increase the curb appeal of the development. They could even turn that quadrant of parking into a pocket park, if not a pocket park move a couple of the commercial or retail buildings up to front the sidewalks and streets with minimal setbacks.

[DMRyan]

This poor development just can't catch a break. Just when the developer seemed close to breaking ground on the phase I spec office portion, there's serious doom and gloom on the horizon for downtown office space.

Maybe the residential will start first once again if things pick up in the local and national real estate market.

[BriGuy]

I understand that Iowa, possibly Des Moines, is in the running for a major expansion facility for Microsoft. If so, it is likely that Iowa has been courting Microsoft for quite some time and perhaps the Gray's Landing area is the best area DSM has to offer downtown. Because it needs to be close to a large water source, it is doubtful the suburbs could get this one if Iowa was fortunate to snag this one. Until Microsoft announces where it will build, perhaps mum will continue to be the word on Gray's Landing.

[DMRyan]

The developer has started demo work on the large Jeld-Win warehouse in Riverpoint West (not taking to this Gray's Landing naming very well yet). I think SW 11th Street is supposed to be built within the next year, opening up the main north/south boulevard through the development.

I would rather see Microsoft build somewhere else other than downtown unless they build on the contaminated DICO site. It's underutilization of the land in this area for a one story warehouse with less than 100 employees.

[Mototail]

I would just simply prefer that Microsoft build downtown anywhere so we get more diverse rather then just having insurance as an example downtown!

Where is the article about Des Moines being in the running for the expanding of Microsoft.

[DMRyan]

I get what you're saying, but the downtown employment base is already incredibly diverse. Just because Des Moines is big in insurance doesn't mean there's just insurance companies down there. Look at all the financial and investment companies that have set up shop here too. There's this notion that because there's a huge white collar base, that Des Moines is some how a one-trick pony employment wise and that it's entirely centered around insurance. The diversity of many of our largest employers show that this couldn't be further from the truth.

[Mototail]

Yea, that's not entirely what I was saying...

so....but if the location happened then this could spruce up that old image of just being insurance..

Found the article by the way:

http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/arch ... enter.html

We talk about the diversification of tech jobs in my Master's MPA classes at Drake. It's something that Des Moines needs to work on to ensure steady growth in the future.

I suggest that people read this article.

[DMRyan]

I'm all for the continued diversity of employment downtown, or anywhere in the metro. I'm not for putting in a huge one story warehouse of computer equipment with a couple dozen employees in what is supposed to be our next mixed use redevelopment district (unless, it again goes on the tough to develop DICO site). If this lands in a business park somewhere in the Des Moines metro, I'll do a backflip too.

[rasmeth]

I'm not for putting in a huge one story warehouse of computer equipment with a couple dozen employees in what is supposed to be our next mixed use redevelopment district

I agree, but if there was a way to put a potential data center there that was a couple of stories tall and had windows it might be better than having it in a less visible location.

[Des Moineser]

Microsoft probably cares nothing about visibility. This building is entirely utilitarian. They certainly aren't selling anything from it. And with the cost of the servers and the fiber optics, they won't want to drop money on looks and stories. A cheap, functional building is what we'll get. Which is fine for this application. I'm very sure this will be built on the SE side if we get it.

[econboy]

From speaking with someone who spends alot of time at the Statehouse today, he indicated that the incentive package should go through just fine and that IDED is keeping things quiet!

However, he also indicated that some of the Senate may want to tone down the 'energy cutback' retoric right now, b/c it could scare Microsoft away if they think that energy costs might rise alot in the near future.

That being said, I still think that Marshalltown and Waterloo are looking good for the power plants, and that our new green energy sources should help some. This plus the Google presence should help push Microsoft into Iowa.

[bramasoleiowa]

From speaking with someone who spends alot of time at the Statehouse today, he indicated that the incentive package should go through just fine and that IDED is keeping things quiet!

However, he also indicated that some of the Senate may want to tone down the 'energy cutback' retoric right now, b/c it could scare Microsoft away if they think that energy costs might rise alot in the near future.

That being said, I still think that Marshalltown and Waterloo are looking good for the power plants, and that our new green energy sources should help some. This plus the Google presence should help push Microsoft into Iowa.

I really wish our elected leaders would get off their knee-pads trying to get Microsoft to Iowa.

Just a few years ago AG Tom Miller put Iowa in a class-action lawsuit to get $10 per person for over-charges of products and politicians called Microsoft one of the worst companies around.
And at his State of the State address earlier this yearCulver denounced a loophole of corporate welfare.

"It's just not fair that big, out of state, multi-billion dollar corporations that do tens of millions of dollars of business in Iowa avoid paying Iowa income taxes because of an outdated tax loophole."

So this brings us to Iowa giving millions of dollars of tax breaks to get 60 jobs.
But... new month, new attitude for our hypocrites on the hill.

[Ingersoll1978]

Please keep discussion in this thread on Gray's Landing (Riverpoint West).

Please talk about Microsoft in this thread:
http://absolutedsm.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3052

[DMRyan]

Below is the newest concept rendition of the Riverpoint West/Gray's Landing Development. Changes to this plan include less housing units (around 500 versus the 700 originally proposed) and an increase in commercial office space. This concept looks to include about 740,000 sq. ft. of commercial office and retail space. It appears as if there will be less mixed use retail space along the 11th Street corridor, which should start construction within the next year. A big box store is still shown in the plans for this development.

Concept_Map_May2008.jpg

[rasmeth]

I like how the buildings line MLK Parkway and face north, but I think that northeastern block is almost all parking which isn't good because it's in a such a prominent spot. I like how Riverpoint West is incorporating the surrounding grid system for its streets.