Downtown Shuttle System

[mirage1]

I do take the shuttle bus from time to time to patronize some restaurants on the other side of the river downtown, to answer the above question.

after reading your post, i see no reason the shuttle busses cant be extended to anywhere along those same paths you mention, at a low cost, and in a completely flexible way, changing as needed.

to answer the costs question, busses averaged .34C per passenger mile in Portland(http://www.debunkingportland.com/Transi ... ostBus.htm), and the Portland streetcar runs a cost of about $1.67 per passenger mile per Charles Hales, the consultant who is presenting the program here. (http://www.debunkingportland.com/Transi ... ansit(2005).htm). I assume the figures include all costs, capital and operating.

[DMRyan]

The city appears to be speeding up their efforts to get this tram to become a reality by hoping to cash in on some stimulus funding (not a given at this point).

The most likely route of the streetcar has been selected, creating a 3-mile loop that is estimated at $70 million +. I like the route now incorporates a stop on Court Avenue. All of this makes sense, except I thought it would've been better to continue to run this streetcar down E. Walnut Street east of the river rather than on Court Avenue. A newer version of the map below shows future spurs heading south down SE 6th Street and down to Gray's Landing/Riverpoint West as the areas develop. Something still needs to happen to get a spur up to the Iowa Events Center too. What does everyone else think of the proposed route?



From theiowachannel.com

Downtown Tram Plans Move Forward

Plans continue for a tram system in downtown Des Monies.

The route and look are in place. The next piece is deciding how it will be run and how to secure funding.

The proposed route is a three-mile loop throughout downtown Des Moines. The main route would be up and down Grand and Court Avenues, right on the streets.

The Traffic Safety Committee met Tuesday morning to discuss the tram. Supporters say they've looked at the success of a similar project in Portland. That tram spurred development and housing within a three block radius of the rail.

They said the tram also makes it easier to get around downtown. As for the funding, the final price tag isn't set but it will be at least 70 million dollars.

"There's a real interest to see if we can get this sped up enough and qualify for some stimulus money that's coming in for infrastructure improvements," said Gary Fox with the Traffic Safety Committee.

Fox said they're looking at electric, a diesel hybrid or battery-operated trams.

[QuadCityImages]

That is a ton of cash. Seems like that money might be better used extending passenger rail service from Iowa City (someday) to Des Moines.

[Mastermind]

I think the IC/DSM rail service is a different issue at a different time. The "study" is due out some time this year if it is not already out there. Once Quad cities gets rolling, than Iowa City, it will be our turn. until then we have other fish to fry.

The route is fine, I like the fact that the sculpture garden will be included in the first phase.

[Philby]

I like the route and don't mind that it goes across the river on Court, there's not a lot (currently) between the River and like E 5th, that tourists/shoppers riding the tram would want to go to, and commuters aren't going to mind walking an extra block if they're serious about public transit. Plus if its that big of a deal they can just ride the loop around til it comes back W on Grand. And since Grand and Locust are already seeing plenty of development, and it seems like a goal/positive side effect of this tram is to spur development the next logical area seems like along E court and further south, so hopefully this would help that area further develop.

I also like where they chose to end the loop on the W side, makes it easy to extend the loop (or just a spur) along either Ingersoll and/or Grand.

[rasmeth]

Fantastic news they're trying to move forward on this.

[Better Life dude]

Looks like a good route to my eyes. Is there more information somewhere about this route? Like proposed extensions? Ya know, this first phase will be very difficult to see to fruition because of the dollars involved. However, once it is built/ being built, everything else coming off of it (rail extensions and development) will just follow along. It's similar to the idea that no one bats an eyelash at extensions to the skywalk system anymore.

[couch]

Cool! Although it doesn't seem like that much news in and of itself... they still don't have money or specific plans nailed down.

Well said Philby.

[Shire]

I would really love to see this system take hold in Des Moines. Little Rock has a similar system working and Albuquerque is planning one out, both are in the neighborhood of Des Moines' size. I think this would work and would be yet another great motivator for my generation to stay in Iowa.

[DMRyan]

Looks like DART is heading towards cutting routes on the downtown shuttle, which will no doubt affect the ridership numbers (with almost 1,000 people using the service daily in February with the state legislature in town) of the service. The State of Iowa is cutting their portion of funding for the shuttle, with DART returning the favor by cutting their portion of the route near the State Capitol.

After walking the East Village today, it looks like these cuts have already been made. The D-Line shuttles were using E. 6th Street instead of heading up towards the statehouse and several of the D-Line bus stop signs were covered by garbage bags. Perhaps they can just remove the signs instead of having tattered garbage bags sitting on sign posts for months on end.

[Better Life dude]

Has the d-line expanded hours in the evenings? I was down at the downtown library last Thursday evening and saw several trolleys go by on their regular route - but it was past 6pm.

[DMRyan]

Two pieces of info from the DSM Business Record on the downtown tram issue, first an unveiling of the findings of the proposed routes of the tram system:

The Downtown Community Alliance, HDR Inc. and genus landscape architects will present the findings of the Downtown Des Moines tram feasibility study at a public meeting from noon to 1:30 p.m. May 21 at the Des Moines Central Library, 1000 Grand Ave. The presentation will include a description of the proposed route, basic operations and financing options and time for public comment. A question-and-answer session will follow the presentation, and a copy of the presentation will be available at www.downtowndesmoines.com after the meeting.

Next, a lengthy article about a poll of downtown business leaders with less than positive results for their sentiments on funding two important downtown projects, the tram and the renovation of Nollen Plaza. This is important because, as with most things in downtown DSM, if the strong business community isn't behind the idea, it's hard to build any fundraising momentum.

Tram, plaza proposals get the cold shoulder

BY JIM POLLOCK

Two major proposals that would dramatically alter downtown Des Moines drew very little support in the Business Record Executive Survey for 2009.

Asked for their opinion about building a downtown tram system on rails, 56 percent of respondents turned thumbs down, either because the project would be too expensive (32.4 percent) or because a tram wouldn't serve to spark downtown development (23.5 percent). Thirty-eight percent favored the proposed loop across downtown.

As for the push to redesign Nollen Plaza, 76 percent showed little or no interest. Sixty percent said a remodeling of the 30-year-old public space at Third and Locust streets is "not a top priority," and 16 percent saw no need for a change at all. Out of our sampling of Central Iowa business leaders - many of whom might expect to hear from fund-raisers if the Nollen plan were to move ahead - just two said they would be willing to contribute to the cause.

Including this quote about downtown evolving, but having rail being "stuck in the ground" permenantly. I'll understand the sentiment that this could be perceived as wasteful spending, but the whole thought of fixed rail is that it does guide future development, and that is exactly why so much study goes into the location of the tracks. This part of the comment is very misguided and goes against all the tangible development benefits that have spurred development in other cities with light rail and trolley systems.

The tram system produced the most comments from survey participants. Kevin Crowley, chief operating officer of Iowa Realty Commercial, wrote of the potentially $100 million project: "The current trolley system is efficient. This is excessive waste. The downtown needs will evolve; tracks are stuck in the ground."

You can read the full article here:

http://businessrecord.com/main.asp?Sect ... M=80703.77

[Mototail]

I think this has gotten cold shoulders because this had more to do with the employees rather than the employers. I think downtown has suffered in the past by following just the likes of the business executives downtown. The consumers and citizens are of more interest in this project rather then the business owners. They will benefit from it by more exposure then what they got previously. Plus I think this has more to do with the residents of downtown and surrounding locality along with the employees. The downtown population goes from the 10,000 to 15,000 and intensifies up to 70,000 or so during the business day. The interest of the residents and employees also factor more into the renovation of the Nollan Plaza over the thoughts of the executives.

Many of these local business executives of downtown I'd bet live in the suburbs. So they get in their cars to drive home. I'd like to know the quantity out of...instead of the percentages.

Didn't they alter the route because legislature came to a close?

Everyone notice that the the bus routes finally have shelters on more of the routes?

[DMRyan]

I'd argue that we wouldn't have much of a downtown to spend time in if it weren't for the incredible business community in this city. It's not the politicians at the city or county level that really move the bulk of the development in downtown.

Having corporate leaders on board, especially for reworking Nollen Plaza is absolutely instrumental. Saying to hell with the corporations is like biting the hand that feeds downtown Des Moines.

[Mastermind]

Lets keep in mind, Its not like they all said it was a bad idea. 56% said NO 44% said Yes.

[econboy]

The impression I got from the not interested group was more of a "let's keep what we have now and wait and see how the needs evolve over the next few years."

I don't think it would be a bad idea to put a light cheap 'loop' tram downtown. But either do that OR expand the trolley system in it's place.

I think both of them overlapping might be overkill at this point in time.

[Mototail]

It wasn't overall a negative statement from the executives, but it's not an overall sentimental show of support.

This project is aimed at employees, residents, and consumers of the downtown region. It builds on public ease of use of the area rather than the large corporations. There isn't a clear revenue that will increase the executives pay, but it rather goes to the city. This is pure public infrastructure and quality of life issues.

I think that's the point where the movement and patterns of the past by following the majority of the business community have lead to the master plans of the downtown region not being progressed. There needs to be more of a balance and input towards the the direction of downtown from the public's side. I remember a project that was conducted at a class that I took at Grand View that involved the downtown region. Many of the projects findings were with the same remarks " as keep the status quo" which was the 9-5 business style. We can't just support projects that will create a mentality of rolling down the blinds at 5pm.

The downtown region can no longer be just guided by the businesses, but they can't be thrown under the bus either. It's called welcome to power sharing, so I wonder if the downtown executives can step up to the challenge.

[IowaNomad]

I agree with Mototail. The major businesses downtown don't receive any revenue from their operations downtown. I don't know anyone who shows up at Principal and asks to open a 401k. The sales staff go to the client. So a downtown shuttle system only increases taxes for them. Many large employers already subsidize or fully pay for their staff to ride the buses.

[Mototail]

buying eight new buses for a total of $3 million; and spending $3 million to update shelters and build a new Park and Ride facility.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/articl ... 0387/1001/

This article touches on the transit mall and Dart.

Thought I would post this site as well. It has a lot of interesting transportation plans.

http://www.dmampo.org/index.html

Anyone seen the discussion that happened yesterday at the Downtown Library?

[Mastermind]

Article about the tram and federal funding that may be available for the first time ever.
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090523/BUSINESS/905230334

Downtown tram route grows longer, more expensive

By DAVID ELBERT • delbert@dmreg.com • May 23, 2009

A transportation consultant is recommending that Des Moines officials pursue plans for a four-mile downtown streetcar route that would cost about $100 million to build.

The proposal is more ambitious than the two- to three-mile routes proposed by the same consultant four months ago.

The reason for the change to a larger system, said Charlie Hales of HDR Engineering in Omaha, is "a significant shift in willingness by the federal government to support these kinds of projects."

I dont understand the spur to the Lower East Village. If there is not going to be an effort to move the heavy industry down there, it think the spur would be better suited to up Ingersoll.

[mirage1]

once again, the lack of thought in this plan is appalling.

a lane right down the center of court avenue???....so much for any farmers market being located there.

the new transit hub not even ON the proposed rail line?

and financial thought? non-existant. the register had a good comment after the article regarding ongoing costs of the system and the tiny amount that might be covered by fares. taxpayers will not stand for this.

with the poor history of this consultant widely available on the internet why has he not been laughed out of town YET?

every single justification we hear for this tram bologna we heard for that boondoggle of a walnut street transit mall.

trams do not cause development, incentives have caused development.

no wonder business leaders surveyed in the business record strongly oppose this pie in the sky tram. i agree with them.

at the same time, i am well aware there were several project destiny kool aid drinkers on this site that supported THAT amazingly well thought out plan (cough, cough) (sadly..i think you were the only ones) and will think this tram is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

i challenge you to find a way to make this happen without taxpayer dollars. we taxpayers are supporting enough pork.

[Better Life dude]

You are such a visionary Mirage1.

I would support this plan - at whatever level it could be built if the sources of funding could be identified - which is the next phase of this planning. It makes sense to keep the planning going forward for this project and let it reach it's logical conclusion. Who knows - it might just happen. To NOT pursue the budgeting and sourcing of potential funding is not good planning.

[mirage1]

BLD calling me a visionary?.....

Thanks, but that was already done when i was one of those that stood up on the stage in Washington DC and accepted the last "Des Moines, an All-American City" award.

You were there of course....ummmm.......ok, maybe not.

[Mototail]

Where is this overall report that was given this past week that's being reported on by DMR?

I was late into making it to the presentation so I didn't get to grab and information? I thought it was going to be posted on www.downtowndesmoines.com.

[Mastermind]

no wonder business leaders surveyed in the business record strongly oppose this pie in the sky tram

I wouldn't call 56% to 44% strong opposition.

[Mototail]

I think if they were interested in a consensus on the matter then the proper people to survey in the businesses would have been the employees.

As a downtown resident I support the Tram in some form.

[couch]

BLD calling me a visionary?.....

Thanks, but that was already done when i was one of those that stood up on the stage in Washington DC and accepted the last "Des Moines, an All-American City" award.

You were there of course....ummmm.......ok, maybe not.

Wow mirage you have soooooo much cred.

[couch]

a lane right down the center of court avenue???....so much for any farmers market being located there.

Isn't the farmer's market located on the sides of the streets, facing the sidewalks? Don't most people walk down the sidewalks, at least on Court?

It seems like all this would require is that the vendors not park on the tracks. It's pretty straightforward to keep a three foot clearing...

[fostprei]

Mirage, I usually like to hear your side of the argument.....but take the blinders off please. If $ is there for proposals we better step up and bid for it, otherwise somebody else surely will. btw, the website you are pimping that knocks the tram consultant is complete garbage. I looked it over and almost "laughed" it off of my screen.

I'm as conservative as they come, but I'm wise enough to see we need a blend of progressive vision and fiscal conservatism to carry Des Moines into the future. (That combination leading up to 2009 has made Des Moines a "youth magnet" city, see other thread)

Here's my opinion.

Scratch the loop idea. I'm a big proponent of a 1 line track that either goes back and forth or has two trams that go up and down the same line (cheaper infrastructure too). I worked downtown in 2007 and 2008 and the shuttle system was a nice novelty but it isn't something I ever witnessed many people using unfortunately. For this to work, I think it is essential to connect the main areas of population density w/in the near downtown area. The Ingersoll/Grand corridor comes to mind immediately. Next maybe a pipe dream or a "pie-in-the-sky" dream but I would love to see Drake connected to downtown.

Main line: Connect 42nd or 35th on Ingersoll through downtown turning onto Walnut or Locust and stopping at the foot of the capital. (or you could do a short loop around the capital to service all the state office buildings in vicinity.) That addresses A.) Connecting the largest near dwntwn population bases. Ingersoll/Grand and East Village- close to Court Ave. too B.) Enables a nice sized route for dwntwn workers to take adv. of.

2nd line: The main line might be good enough at this point but in the future I would love to see a connector from Drake to downtown somehow. Give easy access to downtown for x,000 18-22 yr olds, along with another large population enclave of Sherman Hill and the Drake neighborhoods.

after that, we can talk about a monorail from the Airport to Downtown..........

btw, I once accepted an award for Hamburgler of the month at McDonalds. Due to that, none of you amatuers are worthy of discussing the finer points of a quarter pounder with me.

[Better Life dude]

btw, I once accepted an award for Hamburgler of the month at McDonalds. Due to that, none of you amatuers are worthy of discussing the finer points of a quarter pounder with me.

I once spent six years in the 1980's riding the MTA while living in Boston - specifically the "B" line segment of the Green Line - the light rail part of subway system. Do I get cred for that on this this topic? As long as we're touting our long-ago pasts. However, I never ate a quarter pounder on the "T".
Map of the Boston light rail and subway system:http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/subway/