Downtown Shuttle System

[Mototail]

Yea, the Titans of industry have been consolidating and forking the consumer in the back for just pure profit. Then, it further creates problems when government gets involved in private companies. Since the beginning of the 1900s and more specifically 1913 time span government has squashed competition for the betterment of society to some degrees. You remember the Glass-Stegal Act that prevented Citi Group from owning Travelers (insurance companies). So financing couldn't own insurance. The fox couldn't guard the hen house. There is no reason for a single transportation company to own a mass transit system. It's a conflict of interest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass-Steagall_Act

[urbanlawyer]

"Good Urban Transit: A Conservative Model"
http://www.apta.com/research/info/online/documents/good_urban_transit.pdf

[DMRyan]

The study has been completed. It's a 4-mile $104 million dollar initial phase loop from E. 6th to 15th Street, with future phases potentially connecting the IEC with Principal Park, heading into the redeveloping areas of Riverpoint West/Gray's Landing and possibly south of E. Court Avenue in the E. Village.

Tell us how the sky is falling mirage.

From the Register, which will probably have a more in-depth article tomorrow:

Study: Des Moines is 'prime' candidate for tram

By CYNTHIA REYNAUD • creynaud@dmreg.com • August 20, 2009

Des Moines is a prime candidate for a downtown tram, a feasibility study released today shows.

The proposed tram, which initially would cost an estimated $104 million to build and $5.6 million annually to operate, would run on electrified rails on a route that links downtown’s Western Gateway to the East Village. The alignment creates a four-mile loop between East Sixth and 15th streets.

Twenty-three stops are proposed along the route. Service would be provided seven days a week and would run as late as 2 a.m. on Fridays and Saturdays. Most riders would never wait more than 15 minutes for a tram.

Future phases could expand the route to run around the State Capitol, north/south on Third Avenue between the Iowa Events Center and Principal Park and on 15th Street northward toward the Sherman Hill and Oakridge neighborhoods and Drake University.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/p ... ckcomments

[Better Life dude]

Tell us how the sky is falling mirage.

Time to rev up some more outrage.
In 3...2...1...


To be constructive, I was hoping for the straight line route and to have it continue up Ingersoll - but if the funding can be found, who am I to judge.

[Des Moineser]

Future phases could expand the route to run around the State Capitol, north/south on Third Avenue between the Iowa Events Center and Principal Park and on 15th Street northward toward the Sherman Hill and Oakridge neighborhoods and Drake University.

They really ought to study a line down south to the airport as well (and hey, it'd bolster the southside too), we might as well directly link our commercial center to our international transportation hub.

[Mototail]

I'd have to agree with you on placing a route to the DMIA and linking it with the bus hub. Also it should tie in the national railroad station.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/articl ... S/90820022

[mirage1]

Way too easy..........

1. Fake study. Look who did it. HDR. The employer of Charles Hales, the promoter of the tram system in Des Moines and the consultant Des Moines hired to promote the tram system to the public starting with the library meetings. A conclusion that a tram works in Des Moines....shocking! Even the most jaded of you would be far more comfortable with a third party doing feasibility studies before spending $100 million dollars.

2. Fake results. Charles Hales told us flat out in Des Moines that trams to the airport and around the state capitol will NOT work due to grade issues. Now the study implies differently. Do they not even proofread?

Remember, development in Portland didn't come as a part of the rail system...the development came as a result of incentives to the developers. (source, Charles Hales, then city council member, Portland city council records, as previously sourced). Now, as a paid pro-tram consultant, he says differently. Zero crediblity.

For any of you to be jumping up and down with glee on this study is frankly pretty amaturish, and i am being as nice as possible here. Don't look so foolish. None of you in your own businesses would ever accept at face value a study from the promoters of any plan...and none of you...(i HOPE) in any government position would move forward without a real non-biased third party review.

I urge you all to step it up and be a bit more thoughtful about this.

[Mastermind]

To be fair Mirage, the tram can easily go to the Western edge of the Capital, and if you ask me, that is sufficient.

So, lets say hypothetically this moves forward, what is the likelyhood of the route being changed? I still think you get more bang for your buck by making the line longer east to west rather than a loop.

[DMRyan]

I'm with you on some of the funding concerns mirage, but let's disperse with this false notion that a street car can't negotiate a semi-steep grade. Capitol Hill in Des Moines is not exactly like traversing the 300 bluffs along the Mississippi River by an elevated cog or something.

Pittsburgh:


Little Rock:


Lisbon:


And I'm still in the camp of believing that density in urban residential development is spurred by transit lines (in conjunction with other incentives no less since urban development is so expensive). I saw all the evidence I needed to in Portland of that, even outside of downtown. New apartment and condo projects were springing up left and right along the light rail lines. What I'm skeptical of is whether or not our little street car project is traversing the right areas to spur additional development since it's really a shuttle versus commuter transit. All eyes should be on the Little Rocks, Memphis' and Salt Lake Cities of the world to see end results. These are the smaller cities that have implemented transit that may be a more realistic case study for transit use, versus the poster child of Portland.

[mirage1]

I'm with you on some of the funding concerns mirage, but let's disperse with this false notion that a street car can't negotiate a semi-steep grade.

Sorry Ryan...please stick with the facts as we know them. Pro-tram consultant Charles Hales stated at the library meetings that they looked VERY carefully at running a tram to the capitol, but the grade simply is too steep to get up to it and unsafe with trams. That of course rules out Sherman Hill and the Airport due to grade. If the pro-tram consultant says it can't be done, it can't be done.

Now..to the meat of the issue. I obtained a copy of the "feasiblity study", and frankly, it is embarassing to those that did the study and those that paid for it. It might be the poorest and most one-sided feasiblity study I have ever had the chance of reviewing, and I have seen many.

A few examples...........

1. we all know Charles Hales says trams cannont GET to the state capitol, and even his own feasiblity proposal proposes the tram only go east to east 6th street. the capitol is east 11th. 5 blocks away is NOT service to the Capitol. however, we all know to get this tram marketed, we need to forget about facts and envision it going to the capitol....how else would we justify that east tram route? so what do the feasibilty study people do?....put a tram with the words "state capitol" in the destination panel on the cover of the study. completely obvious fake marketing and laughable. this is so reminicent of the Project Destiny ad with the little old lady in the nursing home on the brochure telling us how much in property taxes she would save.

2. in 3 rather small print pages in the executive summary (and 29 long paragraphs) only 2 sentences are devoted to cost of the tram. 2 sentences. incredible

3. Hales proposes a free tram in the study. In other words, people that never will think of using the tram should be paying all of the costs. In addition, Hales estimates 2500 average riders a day (well over the 1000 rider RECORD day the trolley had). Keep these figures in mind for later.

4. In January, Hales proposed the cost at $40-50 million dollars. You can see this back in the early pages of this thread where BLD challenges me when i say cost estimates go up usually 55% before trams get built. Now, Hales has the capital cost at $104 million, just a few months later. Guess they are going up far faster than imagined.

5. the Hales "feasibliity study", such that it is, estimates $5.6 million in annual operating cost. Yet the proposal forgets one huge accounting expense, depreciation. Depreciation is not mentioned at ALL in the entire "feasibilty study"...but as any of us who do budgets know...it is an ongoing expense to be taken annualy. This type of capital equipment could reasonably considered to have a 10 year useful life adding another over $10 milion a year in "operating" costs to the $5.6 million disclosed. Equipment breaks, needs replaced, and is upgraded...to not account for this real expense is misleading at best in ANY feasiblity study.

6. at 2500 riders a day, 365 days a year, based on the optimistic estimates by the promoter, and looking at operation and depreciation costs alone (not counting aquisition costs) that comes out to over $17 per ride. Isn't it time we just let this proposal drop?

7. The base case financial scenero in the "feasibility study" shows des moines coming up with a little over $2 million a year to cover just operation costs, well short of the $5.6 million needed (not even including depreciation!). That alone should kill this project.

8. the proposed trolly route doesn't even go to the proposed downtown transit center. how incredibly silly is that???

JUST from the results of the "feasibilty study", we can draw a clear conclusion that a tram cannot be cost justified, nor is the terrain of Des Moines suited for real use of this type of system. It simply doesn't work.

I hope this complete fraud posing as a "feasibilty study", bad as it is, has a money back guarantee.

Time to get real folks.

[IowaNomad]

I have not seen the actual proposal but some of these numbers are difficult to digest without the dollar benefits being disclosed.

$5.6 million per year equals $6.14 per rider (2,500 riders per day, 365 days a year).
$104 million equals $5.70 per rider (2,500 riders per day, 365 days a year, for 20 years).
Total cost is roughly $12 per rider for the next 20 years (not including inflation).

This does not appear to be a good use of funds as we might as well provide free taxi rides downtown for the next 20 years.

Does anyone have any hard data on the projected benefits? I would assume higher property taxes on new development and potentially more sales tax downtown. However, the sales tax would be cannabalizing other areas of Polk county so it would not be a 100% utilization.

[DSMSiren]

I have to say I agree with Mirage. I left the public meeting about the tram with deep concerns about its feasibility and felt the issue of how this would be paid for was completely ignored, earning little more than a mention at the end (and if I recall, only when asked). It's way too expensive for something anticipated to get people simply from one side of downtown to another. I remember the consultant in the meeting talking about high usage during bad weather, but there's one problem. We have skywalks that are accessible to most west-side buildings. That would cut down on ridership right there, imo.

As it is, I don't see it as necessary. I'd rather we invest in something more eco-friendly that would get people on a tram from the suburbs or near-west side via tram, rather than downtown only (commuter vs. shuttle as DMRyan said). Even then, it's going to take time to change attitudes in DM about actually using public transportation.

FYI - you can d/l the tram study here: http://www.downtowndesmoines.com/i_have_business_interests_here/tram_study.php

[Mastermind]

Lets not forget about a possible federal match of up to $75 million. So hypothetically $52 million would come from the City, County, State and Private entities with the remaining $52 million coming from the feds.

[DMRyan]

mirage, you do bring up some very valid funding concerns and the ridership numbers posted in this study do seem overly rosy for the immediate term. If the cost of this thing is $104 million with larger than realistic long term maintenance numbers, perhaps its time to look at the original idea for a downtown streetcar, a single spine that goes down Walnut Street. I'm guessing the ridership wouldn't be as high as the looped system would, but perhaps it's a more realistic piece to chew off of a phase I construction.

Here's stats for a few other streetcar systems for places that may be closer in size and scale to Des Moines (except Tampa obviously):

http://www.looptrolley.org/city_trolleys.html

The Tacoma Link Streetcar is 1.6 miles in length and cost $78.2 million to build. The project has both shared and dedicated lanes. It has 5 stations and has an average weekday ridership of 2,925. This system has 10 minute headways. This project was funded as a part of the Sound Moves Regional System Plan through a .4 percent sales tax and a .3 percent motor vehicle excise tax.

The Little Rock River Rail Streetcar initial track length was 2.5 miles. The line has now been extended to 3.4 miles with 11 stations. The total capital cost for the entire line was $28 million. The initial cost was $20.5 million. Annual ridership in 2007 was 170,000. The funding was provided by both federal grants and local matches from both the City of Little Rock and the City of North Little Rock.

Tampa TECO Streetcar is 3.0 miles in length and carries 1082 riders on weekdays. The system was originally 2.4 miles with initial capital costs of $48.3 million. The line is mostly shared lanes and has 12 stations approximately .25 miles apart. Sixty-two percent of the project was paid for through federal and state funds prioritized by the metropolitan planning organization. The Florida DOT and the City of Tampa covered the remaining capital costs. The operating budget is $2.5 million a year through various sources including $620,000 from the farebox.

The D-Line right now has days that carry just as many riders as the Tampa system, and much more than the Little Rock System.

[urbanlawyer]

Funding a Desire Named Streetcar: http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/26/funding-a-desire-named-streetcar/

Portland nabs more federal funding to expand their streetcar system.

[mirage1]

one more time, so this is very clear.....

we cannot afford this at $17 per rider. period.

(source: promoters' own feasiblity study, as detailed in a previous post)

[Better Life dude]

one more time, so this is very clear.....

we cannot afford this at $17 per rider. period.

(source: promoters' own feasiblity study, as detailed in a previous post)

You sound like you're scolding your teen age kid.

[DMRyan]

Sounds like trouble on the horizon from the free downtown shuttle, with Governor Culver wanting to strip the $200,000 worth of state funding to the service if his budget ideas are approved. Can the shuttle still function in a decent capacity without this funding?

Culver's budget also takes money away from historic preservation and trails projects, which I hope is only temporary (and perhaps necessary for a year or two to balance the budget). On a side tangent, it's no surprise that he wants to retain all of the funding for his pet project Iowa Power fund. I'm not sure if this program has accomplished all that much, and doesn't seem to be nearly as successful or visible as Governor Vilsack's pet project, VisionIowa.

[econboy]

Sounds like trouble on the horizon from the free downtown shuttle, with Governor Culver wanting to strip the $200,000 worth of state funding to the service if his budget ideas are approved. Can the shuttle still function in a decent capacity without this funding?

Culver's budget also takes money away from historic preservation and trails projects, which I hope is only temporary (and perhaps necessary for a year or two to balance the budget). On a side tangent, it's no surprise that he wants to retain all of the funding for his pet project Iowa Power fund. I'm not sure if this program has accomplished all that much, and is in stretch as successful as Governor Vilsack's pet project, VisionIowa.

With the budget and economy the way it is right now, I guess I see the power fund as serving more of a direct purpose to create high-tech jobs. The streetcar, while a definate quality of life issue, probably doesn't have the ripple effect economically that the power fund does/could. Since the world and US economy is purposefully being "re-tooled" and redirected, I see the power fund as more of a necessity.

[MrMafia]

The downtown shuttle is still operational I see. I am going to take a stab in the dark here and guess that any rail based service ideas are dead?

[dogbo]

It is alive and well (the D-line shuttle, that is)and it has been running down to Ingersoll on the weekends. Reports are ridership has been healthy.

[midwest]

I ride the D-Line fairly often, and there are always around 6-10 people on it. That number will probably rise as it starts to get a bit colder now.

[Ingersoll1978]

The downtown shuttle is still operational I see. I am going to take a stab in the dark here and guess that any rail based service ideas are dead?

I'm under the impression that the studies are done...now it's just raising the money (although I haven't heard what's going on with that). I wouldn't believe it's dead, just postponed. It seems that many proposals for downtown start this way and eventually rise to the top of the heap as other "needed" projects are completed (Principal Riverwalk, Gateway West, etc.).

I'm glad people are getting to experience the D-Line through Ingersoll (which is exactly where I think the first extension of a rail line outside of downtown should go). It's a win-win for downtown and Ingersoll residents and workers. If this was permanent and available throughout the day M-S, I would use it to go to work (as long as I could take the dog with me).

[vauxhall]

I ride the D-Line fairly often, and there are always around 6-10 people on it. That number will probably rise as it starts to get a bit colder now.

Correct that people will jump onto transit when weather makes walking unpleasant and the desire is not to fool with a car. The key is having a route that happily marries where people are with where they want to be and providing a sensible frequency of departures. Changing the transit-averse mindset of Americans is tough, but once someone experiences a consistent level of service that competes favorably with SOV travel, the enthusiasm for building out additional transit services gains momentum.

[Ingersoll1978]

Heard this morning that the state plans on cutting their contribution to the D-Line...which will probably result in the service being discontinued. Those who support the D-Line, please contact your representatives in the state house to show your support for this essential service for downtown workers and visitors.

[Mastermind]

Heard this morning that the state plans on cutting their contribution to the D-Line...which will probably result in the service being discontinued. Those who support the D-Line, please contact your representatives in the state house to show your support for this essential service for downtown workers and visitors.

Its not gonna matter, Republicans have taken over...

[conquistador2]

Well... the republicans don't control the state Senate -- just the house and governor's chair right now. So that means the house & senate will have to come to an agreement on funding.

For fear of having tomatoes thrown at me, I actually wouldn't mind if the D-line service was scaled back, and maybe even dropped altogether. Times are tough, and let's face it... this is an extra perk that we could probably live without. When I had my shop in the East Village, the D-line didn't seem to make a difference in the number of customers who walked through my door. In talking with other store owners (this was back in 2008), it sounded like the EV restaurants did see a little extra traffic during their lunch hours, but it didn't do much to help basic retail.

I think if it could be shown that a downtown shuttle was responsible for bringing in a significant number of tourists/visitors, then I'd probably change my stance.

[mirage1]

if the D-Line is "essential" as some here say, let's have the ridership. east village merchants, and ingersoll merchants pay for it.

everyone else does NOT need to be contributing to this.

[Mastermind]

Well... the republicans don't control the state Senate -- just the house and governor's chair right now. So that means the house & senate will have to come to an agreement on funding.

For fear of having tomatoes thrown at me, I actually wouldn't mind if the D-line service was scaled back, and maybe even dropped altogether. Times are tough, and let's face it... this is an extra perk that we could probably live without. When I had my shop in the East Village, the D-line didn't seem to make a difference in the number of customers who walked through my door. In talking with other store owners (this was back in 2008), it sounded like the EV restaurants did see a little extra traffic during their lunch hours, but it didn't do much to help basic retail.

I think if it could be shown that a downtown shuttle was responsible for bringing in a significant number of tourists/visitors, then I'd probably change my stance.

My team at work has used the shuttle numerous times for traveling to the EV for lunch. Youre probably right about it not helping the other businesses though. I know we probably would not have gone to the EV without it. Now if it was $0.25 or $0.50 we would probably still use it.

[rasmeth]

if the D-Line is "essential" as some here say, let's have the ridership. east village merchants, and ingersoll merchants pay for it.

everyone else does NOT need to be contributing to this

Don't forget the exorbitant amount of money that everyone is forced to pay toward auto infrastructure. That's the real problem to control by scaling back roads by making them smaller and building things closer together.