Court Avenue Development Efforts

[Ingersoll1978]

Go to East Village or even the Ingersoll strip for a more subdued atmosphere--Court Avenue has developed into more of a 20 somethings hang out, at least late at night. I think it would take a pretty large turnover in type of bars down there before this would change.

There are plenty of options available in both those areas. In fact, they are the only places I go normally (Saddle and Lime).

[dogbo]

Go to East Village or even the Ingersoll strip for a more subdued atmosphere--Court Avenue has developed into more of a 20 somethings hang out, at least late at night. I think it would take a pretty large turnover in type of bars down there before this would change.

I disagree.

Granted, nowadays I generally only get down there if it is before or after an event (I-Cubs, Civic Ctr, Wells Fargo), but the bars during those times by-and-large reflect the demographics of the people who are attending big events.

In addition, People's isn't pulling in bands that are necessarily geared to the younger crowds either. If you don't want to hang out with the 20 somethings, stay out of Surf Shack, Komodo Club, etc. But the "kids" aren't the ones filling up Shorty's, High Life. Johnny's HOF, Royal Mile, Hessan Haus….at least from my experiences (even on non-big event nights).

[DMRyan]

I'm honestly not seeing much out there that's catering to the 40+ crowd, excluding non-game days and after work events. Where's the jazz club, wine bar, martini lounge, etc. that appeals to adults that want more than a sports bar when they go out? I think this is a deficiency of this district currently that should be addressed to have something a little more well-rounded, only I think the East Village will beat Court Avenue to the punch.

[dogbo]

I see your point Ryan however to be honest, do these places have to be on Court Avenue? I probably never noticed this void (not counting the Jazz club) when downtown given that we tend to head to the bars of nice restaurants to fill the needs you mention. Azalea's, Django's, Splash, and Centro (to name a few) have nice bars and are good places to grab a martini or glass of wine. True, Azalea, is really the only one of these really in the "Court District".

Isn't Sborcco (sp?) considered a "wine bar"? How about Cosmopolitan lounge as a great martini bar?

All that said, I do think you've hit on an opportunity for the Court Ave area for a stand alone bar this isn't currently offered anywhere else in the entertainment district. If they'd ever do the Randolph project, they're actually be some spaces to offer some more "grown up" places .

[Philby]

I think the main problem is supply and demand, in my experience the majority of people I see out at night are 20 somethings. So of course that's what bars are gonna gear towards. Sure there are 30 and 40 somethings that go out, but I think they're the exception in the best city to raise a family. And in my experience, people in that demographic tend to find a "neighborhood" bar and make it their Cheers. Beaverdale AKs, Bradley's on 50th and DuckTail on 86th immediately come to mind as places with a more regular, slightly older demo.

Plus there is a wine bar on Court (Sbrocco) and a martini bar (I wouldn't go so far as to call the Lift a lounge) and I don't think a jazz club would stand a chance with Blues on Grand being the default place to go downtown for that type of entertainment, even though its not on Court Ave. Plus the High Life/Bait Shop tend to pull a slighly older crowd (25+) with the High Life's nostalgic decor and the Bait Shop's fantastic draft beer selection (not to mention they cater to the bike crowd which tends to be a little older).

[Philby]

Good points Dogbo, I think if you consider ALL of downtown, not just Court Ave, there are plenty of options for a more upscale atmosphere if that's what you're looking for.

Also Hawk's original comment was regarding Court Ave having other options besides bars/restaurants, not necessarily having options besides sports bars/dance clubs. In my opinion Court Ave is an district for bars/restaurants, ie nightlife. If you're looking for something else (he mentioned live/work spaces) then I don't know why you would be on Court Ave...

[Opus1]

Being a member of the over-40 club.....man that's hard to type.....I just think back to the days when Court Ave was dominated by Smithson's bars, and how few options there were for anything other than 20-something meat market clubs?!? I have to give kudos to the Full Court Press guys every chance I get, all of the their places seem to be welcoming to all ages/types/interests, and like Ryan said more than any one group or force they are to be given credit for the Court Ave/Downtown entertainment revival. And for a little classier/older experience, their Sbrocco has really turned into a great choice for a nice dinner, flight of wine, or quieter conversation away from the noise of the crowd. Cosmopolitan was a great suggestion as well (live music on weekends), and the bar areas of Django and Centro are full of interesting people well into the late hours on weekends. Not to say we can't use a few more older/diverse places, but they are there if you look for them!

On a somewhat related topic (okay so sometimes when old people type their thoughts don't necessarily go in a straight line!), I went out with some of my 20-something co-workers last week and the subject of Clive After 5 came up. Sounds like it's officially no longer cool to attend, and I had to mention to them how Seniom Sed was the original Friday-after-work gathering downtown. They thought the idea of having a Friday gathering at Nollen Plaza was genius, and couldn't believe it died for lack of interest. After explaining how Clive and 86th Street slowly killed off the event, I couldn't help but wonder.....if Nollen Plaza could hurry up and get the facelift it needs, could Seniom Sed have another go at success? Especially on those Friday evenings where the I-Cubs are playing, a concert is up at the Well, or an event is at the Civic Center?

[southdm]

I'm 39 and have fond memories Seniom Sed. When I was in my twenties, it was a Friday ritual to head down there. It was a sad time when the crowds began to dwindle and it eventually stopped. I think there has been a shift in attitudes in the last few years in regards to downtown and I think it would make it, even if it was on a limited basis. Maybe once a month or scheduled in conjuction with other events like you mentioned above.

I also want to chime in and say I agree that the Full Court Press guys should be given a lot of credit for the revitalization of the Court Ave district. They have created venues that were unique and made it worth coming downtown.

One other thing I wanted to mention off topic was barnstormer tailgating. I went to my first game since they started back up the other week. Had a great time tailgating in the parking lots however there were no bathroom facilities available that we could find. This could really turn in to big time event and a nice draw for the downtown if they would just put out a couple of portable bathrooms. Just an observation.

[MusicMan]

There have been discussions to bring seniom sed back - next year... stay tuned.

[DMRyan]

Mullets is now open. Check out their menu, which also includes breakfast along with the usual stuff you would expect to have at a Full Court Press bar.

http://www.mulletsdm.com

Here's the outdoor deck:


And the view from the bar:

[SFO2DSM]

Great editorial in this week's Business Record on the parking lot west of Dos Rios:
http://www.businessrecord.com/main.asp?FromHome=1&TypeID=1&ArticleID=10509&SectionID=5&SubSectionID=12

[southdm]

I'm not sure if the lot next to Dos Rios is the right spot but I still think we could use a movie theatre near Court Ave. A theatre would be bring a ton of people downtown for dinner & movie and possibly a couple of drinks afterwards.

[wmjindsm]

I would love something like this from Marcus Theaters in Omaha. Dinner and a movie...

http://www.marcustheatres.com/Theatre/T ... etail/181/

[Hojo]

I would love something like this from Marcus Theaters in Omaha. Dinner and a movie...

http://www.marcustheatres.com/Theatre/T ... etail/181/

Agreed. When I lived in KC, I went to AMC's flagship theater (Main Street) and it was set up like this. Ages 18+ in the dining theaters at night only.

Heck, even a Lucky Strike or something would do well, I think.

[dogbo]

Wow....nice work IMO on the new Mickey's Irish Pub which may finally put to rest the Smithson curse (i.e....revolving bars) in what should be one of the most desireable/profitable buildings in the Court District. You can see major work and money have gone into this place recently. Sounds like this is a joint venture between a couple heavy hitters that up until now, have spent most of their time and money out west.

[DMRyan]

They're not finished yet, the plans for the patio fronting Court Avenue should look great and be in place for next year's patio season. This should be one of the best bar patios in the city after this is completed.

I took photos of the new look of the building this past weekend, but have been so busy lately I'm not sure when I'll get them uploaded.

[DesMoinesRunner]

I'm not sure if the lot next to Dos Rios is the right spot but I still think we could use a movie theatre near Court Ave. A theatre would be bring a ton of people downtown for dinner & movie and possibly a couple of drinks afterwards.

If anyone does bring a Movie Theatre back downtown, please do it right:
http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/_PvT6UJn ... 2a2r5kPg_w

[hawk61401]

I'm not sure if the lot next to Dos Rios is the right spot but I still think we could use a movie theatre near Court Ave. A theatre would be bring a ton of people downtown for dinner & movie and possibly a couple of drinks afterwards.

If anyone does bring a Movie Theatre back downtown, please do it right:
http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/_PvT6UJn ... 2a2r5kPg_w

Would be nice but I am not sure Des Moines can handle it. Successful downtown movie theaters are in big cities with high density and a lot of residents living downtown. Des Moines can't even do a downtown grocery store. LIke you said, please do it right.

I was in Chattanooga last year and they had recently opened a theater near their riverfront. It has an adult-only VIP auditorium which serves beer and a lot more than just popcorn and milkduds. It serves good eats like crab cakes, salads and specialty desserts and .. get this .... they are delivered to you in your seat. There's more ... La-Z-Boy type seats, push a button and a foot rest pops out. The theater is suppose to help bring 400,000 moviegoers to downtown annually. Imagine what that would do for down Des Moines restaurants. The restaurant owners would be licking their chops.

Again, I tout Des Moines a lot. We've come a long way. But when I go to other cities, I also see that we have a long way to go.

[Ingersoll1978]

I strongly believe a modern theater would do extremely well downtown (if built with current technology, clean and managed well). Currently, there is no "modern" theater within miles of the city core. Other than Fleur Cinema and the Varsity (which play indie films), we drive all the way out to Jordan Creek for movies. Everyone in the zip codes of 50309, 50310, 50311 and 50312 (and others) are doing the same thing. There are tens of thousands leaving the city for movies. If there was a similar theater downtown, we would go there every time (in addition to the Fleur and Varsity). Several other cities much smaller have successful downtown multiplex theaters, including Sioux City. We obviously have a huge void for such a venue. I would expect to see it happen in the next few years.

About the grocery store, I really don't get the hoopla around that. I think people expect to see a Hy-Vee or Dahl's plopped right downtown. Everyday needs, including milk, bread, etc. are already found downtown in several locations, including ethnic groceries, convenience stores and Walgreens. Yes, you can't go get a grocery cart full of groceries, but you really need a car for that kind of shopping (and the the two "grocery stores" were more similar to convenience stores than a Hy-Vee). A 70,000 sq. ft Dahl's is 2 miles from the heart of downtown. Gateway Market is 1 mile. Not a big deal in my opinion, with both having bus routes nearby for those who don't have a car.

[hawk61401]

I strongly believe a modern theater would do extremely well downtown (if built with current technology, clean and managed well). Currently, there is no "modern" theater within miles of the city core. Other than Fleur Cinema and the Varsity (which play indie films), we drive all the way out to Jordan Creek for movies. Everyone in the zip codes of 50309, 50310, 50311 and 50312 (and others) are doing the same thing. There are tens of thousands leaving the city for movies. If there was a similar theater downtown, we would go there every time (in addition to the Fleur and Varsity).

Well said, Ingersoll. We hear all the hoopla about revitalizing downtown and connecting the dots. A first class movie theater is one of those major dots, but I don't recall hearing anything about a movie theater. I would rank it up there with a convention hotel.

What do moviegoers do? They shop and dine before or after a movie. The Majestic below which I attended in Chattanoga has 12 screens and 2,500 seats. If Des Moines had something comparable, let's say only half of those moviegoers dine or shop before or after a movie .. every night! So, we have about a thousand extra people downtown at night filling up the restaurants and shopping (if there is a place to shop), and, these would be people that would be a repeat business and patrons.

Something is not occurring every night at WFA or the Civic Center. Court Ave is mainly bars and restaurants. It needs another entertainment dimension for downtown. We like to say that downtown is for everybody and a movie theater would reinforce that. As Ingersoll referred to, why lose all those moviegoers and millions in dollars to Jordan Creek?

[Ex-Chicago]

What do moviegoers do? They shop and dine before or after a movie. The Majestic below which I attended in Chattanoga has 12 screens and 2,500 seats. If Des Moines had something comparable, let's say only half of those moviegoers dine or shop before or after a movie .. every night! So, we have about a thousand extra people downtown at night filling up the restaurants and shopping (if there is a place to shop), and, these would be people that would be a repeat business and patrons.

And, each of those 2500 seats could potentially be filled 2 to 3 times every night, assuming there are late afternoon, evening and late evening showings. Of course, on most nights there are probably a lot more empty seats at most movies than filled ones.

[Hojo]

What do moviegoers do? They shop and dine before or after a movie. The Majestic below which I attended in Chattanoga has 12 screens and 2,500 seats. If Des Moines had something comparable, let's say only half of those moviegoers dine or shop before or after a movie .. every night! So, we have about a thousand extra people downtown at night filling up the restaurants and shopping (if there is a place to shop), and, these would be people that would be a repeat business and patrons.

And, each of those 2500 seats could potentially be filled 2 to 3 times every night, assuming there are late afternoon, evening and late evening showings. Of course, on most nights there are probably a lot more empty seats at most movies than filled ones.

Ultimately, I think you could look at downtown KC as a good model. They just got their first downtown grocery store (Cosentino's) about two years ago, and they have AMC's flagship theater that is a killer movie theater, serving food/alcohol, even with a restaurant as part of the theater that stays open late and serves breakfast. Although there are a lot of people in the KC metro, I think the downtown area has a lot of similarities to Des Moines. I do believe that a theater would do well in downtown Des Moines, as well as a Lucky Strike or something similar. The P&L District in KC sucks, IMO, compared to the locally-driven establishments in downtown DSM, but the concepts are basically the same - get a lot of action in a relatively small area.

[Philby]

Not sure if this is the best place for this, but I figured it will affect Court Ave the most.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/articl ... od-vendors

Starting Jan 1, 2001 food cart vendors will be required to purchase licenses (makes sense) and NOT be allowed to operate between 1:30 AM and 5:30 AM (Does not apply to Nollen Plaza and Farmers Market vendors).

Does this make sense to anyone else? I understand the problems that its causing, but Des Moines is hardly the only city with food vendors (if anything we're the LAST), and other cities have come up with a solution that allows the vendors to remain in operation until the after bar business has dispersed. Why couldn't the city council review other options besides just shutting the vendors down at 1:30??

If DSM/Iowa is serious about retaining the younger, post college demographic, this is a step in the WRONG direction if you ask me.

And besides restricting a service demanded by its residents, the city is also stifiling business, because I doubt many of the vendors will decide to push their carts downtown next spring if they have to close by 1:30. Perhaps some comprimise can be reached before then.

[dogbo]

I agree that it seems short-sighted to me.

[econboy]

Will it completely wipe out food vendors? I doubt it.

Is it short sighted? Yes! It just pushes back against further creating a more lively atmosphere in a downtown that has come a long way from the graveyard it was in the 90's.

Too often, there is still an element around here (DSM) that just doesn't recognize or appreciate the value of a vibrant social atmosphere. Not everybody wants to go home and go to bed by 10PM. (And I'm in that family-child demo now....can't make it past 11 sometimes ) Thats not what is going to make Des Moines a thriving city alone but it sure goes a long way.

Just because people are congregateing past Midnight in a public area doesn't mean it's "roughians up to no good".

[southdm]

I wonder if the food vendors paid a fee if they could set up in the lot between Court Ave Brew and Surf Shack. It is centrally located and would keep people out of the street. I don't see a problem with them staying open late. A little food that late, could be helpful to a lot of those folks.

[dogbo]

I wonder if the food vendors paid a fee if they could set up in the lot between Court Ave Brew and Surf Shack. It is centrally located and would keep people out of the street. I don't see a problem with them staying open late. A little food that late, could be helpful to a lot of those folks.

Not a bad idea except that the lot is not a city lot. It is owned by a private identity and if you've noticed, they charge people to park cars there on weekends. Because of this, I don't think this is a viable solution.

Unrelated, but related to this thread -- I was able to stop in Mickey's Irish Pub early on Saturday evening. They did a VERY nice job gutting and updating this space. It is completely unrecognizable from the train wrecks that last occupied this space. I'm anxious to see how they develop the outside patio/beer garden next year. In today's DM Register there was a short write-up on this and in case people didn't realize, this is co-owned by Baldwin (Drink, Uncle Bucks, Wellman's, etc.) and the guy who originally opened the other Mickey's around town (but has since sold them). Good to hear this visible Court Avenue venue has some $trong backing.

[DMRyan]

Just getting a few shots of the Mickey's Irish Pub that opened up last month. Anyone had a chance to visit the place yet to see what they've done with the interior? The red flower pots on the first floor roofline will be a nice touch when filled and I definitely want to come back for a shot of their patio when it's done next year.

[DMRyan]

Not much to write home about here, but Mickey's Irish Pub has put up a pretty colorful sign on a blank portion of their building.

After lighting quick development back in 2006 and 2007, there doesn't seem to be much construction action on Court Avenue lately. I did notice that the Randolph Hotel annex has both of it's retail tenant bays filled, but these two buildings still beg for a much larger renovation. Perhaps this could be one of the historic building targets that Sherman and Associates is eyeing for future development prospects?

[hawk61401]

Just getting a few shots of the Mickey's Irish Pub that opened up last month.

A very nice transformation of the exterior and a nice complement to the Court Ave area. This is the best that this building has ever looked that I can remember. So much better than looking like the ugly step sister of The Surf Shack.